Discussion:
[Cucumber] Proposed Code of Conduct (for feedback)
(too old to reply)
Matt Wynne
2016-03-30 23:32:21 UTC
Permalink
Hi all,

At a recent meetup of the core team in Copenhagen, we discussed the issue of the lack of diversity in the contributions to the open-source project. We have a great diverse range of people using Cucumber and attending our conferences and meetups, but we’d like to encourage more people to feel welcome to help with the open-source too.

We decided that a code of conduct would be a good first step. The CoC will apply to this mailing list as well as other Cucumber venues, so please give it a read and share your support / feedback.

Preview:
https://github.com/cucumber/cucumber/blob/code-of-conduct/CODE_OF_CONDUCT.md <https://github.com/cucumber/cucumber/blob/code-of-conduct/CODE_OF_CONDUCT.md>

Comments on the pull-request:
https://github.com/cucumber/cucumber/pull/22 <https://github.com/cucumber/cucumber/pull/22>

cheers,
Matt

—
+44(0)7974430184
***@cucumber.io
https://cucumber.io
https://twitter.com/mattwynne
--
The Cucumber logo is the intellectual property of Cucumber Ltd, a limited
company registered in Scotland, number 456793.

UK Headquarters: Cucumber Ltd, Drumsyniebeg, Lochgoilhead, Cairndow,
Argyll, PA24 8AN UK.

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Thomas Sundberg
2016-03-31 04:38:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matt Wynne
Hi all,
At a recent meetup of the core team in Copenhagen, we discussed the issue of the lack of diversity in the contributions to the open-source project. We have a great diverse range of people using Cucumber and attending our conferences and meetups, but we’d like to encourage more people to feel welcome to help with the open-source too.
We decided that a code of conduct would be a good first step. The CoC will apply to this mailing list as well as other Cucumber venues, so please give it a read and share your support / feedback.
Good idea!
Post by Matt Wynne
https://github.com/cucumber/cucumber/blob/code-of-conduct/CODE_OF_CONDUCT.md
https://github.com/cucumber/cucumber/pull/22
Feedback provided

/Thomas
--
Thomas Sundberg
M. Sc. in Computer Science

Mobile: +46 70 767 33 15
Blog: http://thomassundberg.wordpress.com/
Twitter: @thomassundberg

Better software through faster feedback

Join me for a Selenium kickstart in Timisoara, Romania in April.
http://mozaicworks.com/public-trainings-and-workshops/selenium-webdriver-test-automation-for-web-applications/

Interested in a BDD Kickstart in Stockholm?
https://cucumber.io/events/bdd-kickstart-stockholm-16
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Tim Walker
2016-03-31 11:51:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matt Wynne
Post by Matt Wynne
Hi all,
At a recent meetup of the core team in Copenhagen, we discussed the
issue of the lack of diversity in the contributions to the open-source
project. We have a great diverse range of people using Cucumber and
attending our conferences and meetups, but we’d like to encourage more
people to feel welcome to help with the open-source too.
Post by Matt Wynne
We decided that a code of conduct would be a good first step. The CoC
will apply to this mailing list as well as other Cucumber venues, so please
give it a read and share your support / feedback.
Good idea!
https://github.com/cucumber/cucumber/blob/code-of-conduct/CODE_OF_CONDUCT.md
Post by Matt Wynne
https://github.com/cucumber/cucumber/pull/22
Feedback provided
/Thomas
Excellent. In concept and in execution. Thomas' feedback makes it that much
better. All in all this will lead to more contribution and en even better
world to raise puppies, and Cucumbers. Great job y'all. Tim
Post by Matt Wynne
--
Thomas Sundberg
M. Sc. in Computer Science
Mobile: +46 70 767 33 15
Blog: http://thomassundberg.wordpress.com/
Better software through faster feedback
Join me for a Selenium kickstart in Timisoara, Romania in April.
http://mozaicworks.com/public-trainings-and-workshops/selenium-webdriver-test-automation-for-web-applications/
Interested in a BDD Kickstart in Stockholm?
https://cucumber.io/events/bdd-kickstart-stockholm-16
--
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Roberto Lo Giacco
2016-04-04 16:38:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matt Wynne
Hi all,
At a recent meetup of the core team in Copenhagen, we discussed the issue
of the lack of diversity in the contributions to the open-source project.
We have a great diverse range of people using Cucumber and attending our
conferences and meetups, but we’d like to encourage more people to feel
welcome to help with the open-source too.
We decided that a code of conduct would be a good first step. The CoC will
apply to this mailing list as well as other Cucumber venues, so please give
it a read and share your support / feedback.
https://github.com/cucumber/cucumber/blob/code-of-conduct/CODE_OF_CONDUCT.md
https://github.com/cucumber/cucumber/pull/22
I perfectly understand your points and the reason why you want to apply
this CoC, on the other hand I feel like you are trying to apply rules only
to those answering questions when it comes to this group....

I might have had an inappropriate behavior, probably more often than I
should have, but I would like people receiving my consultancy for free to
respect my time by spending some of theirs investigating what I wrote...

Sure, nobody has invited me to this forum and this forum owe me nothing for
what I contributed so I'm free to leave or stay, but I must obey the rules.
Makes a lot of sense to me.
On the other hand all the rules seem to apply to the contributors only and
I feel like I will be kicked out very quickly.

I know your goal is not to exclude anybody, but you must also admit it's
really tough to stay calm and polite when you keep saying the same thing
over and over and just being ignored. I've been on the other side of the
barricade and I know it's not always easy to understand something which
might seems obvious to everybody else. But when I have been given a link or
a document, I would have spent hours reading it before getting back with
more questions.

What am I trying to say? Please add something requiring those asking for
help to pay attention and spend some time in trying to understand the
answers that have been given, because they have been given for free and
after having spent hours trying to understand where I was wrong. You guys
helped me out back then and I'm grateful for that.

Unless something like that gets in the CoC I should probably leave the
group before forcing you in the embarrassing situation where you will have
to kick me out :-P

Cheers,
Roberto
Post by Matt Wynne
cheers,
Matt
—
+44(0)7974430184
https://cucumber.io
https://twitter.com/mattwynne
The Cucumber logo is the intellectual property of Cucumber Ltd, a limited
company registered in Scotland, number 456793.
UK Headquarters: Cucumber Ltd, Drumsyniebeg, Lochgoilhead, Cairndow,
Argyll, PA24 8AN UK.
CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: The information in this e-mail is confidential and
privileged; it is intended for use solely by the individual or entity named
as the recipient hereof. Disclosure, copying, distribution, or use of the
contents of this e-mail by persons other than the intended recipient is
strictly prohibited and may violate applicable laws. If you have received
this e-mail in error, please delete the original message and notify us by
email immediately. Thank you. Cucumber Ltd.
--
Posting rules: http://cukes.info/posting-rules.html
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Matt Wynne
2016-04-04 19:35:42 UTC
Permalink
Hi Roberto,
Post by Roberto Lo Giacco
Post by Matt Wynne
Hi all,
At a recent meetup of the core team in Copenhagen, we discussed the issue
of the lack of diversity in the contributions to the open-source project.
We have a great diverse range of people using Cucumber and attending our
conferences and meetups, but we’d like to encourage more people to feel
welcome to help with the open-source too.
We decided that a code of conduct would be a good first step. The CoC
will apply to this mailing list as well as other Cucumber venues, so please
give it a read and share your support / feedback.
https://github.com/cucumber/cucumber/blob/code-of-conduct/CODE_OF_CONDUCT.md
https://github.com/cucumber/cucumber/pull/22
I perfectly understand your points and the reason why you want to apply
this CoC
Great!
Post by Roberto Lo Giacco
on the other hand I feel like you are trying to apply rules only to those
answering questions when it comes to this group....
That feeling is unfounded. :) In fact when I drafted this CoC on the plane
back from Copenhagen, I was really just thinking about the open source
projects, and trying to describe the way I think we already do behave, so
that new visitors would be able to easily realise what a welcoming
community I believe we already are.

So this wasn't designed with the mailing list in mind, but I do think it
should apply everywhere.

I might have had an inappropriate behavior, probably more often than I
Post by Roberto Lo Giacco
should have, but I would like people receiving my consultancy for free to
respect my time by spending some of theirs investigating what I wrote...
Sure, nobody has invited me to this forum and this forum owe me nothing
for what I contributed so I'm free to leave or stay, but I must obey the
rules. Makes a lot of sense to me.
On the other hand all the rules seem to apply to the contributors only and
I feel like I will be kicked out very quickly.
I know your goal is not to exclude anybody, but you must also admit it's
really tough to stay calm and polite when you keep saying the same thing
over and over and just being ignored. I've been on the other side of the
barricade and I know it's not always easy to understand something which
might seems obvious to everybody else. But when I have been given a link or
a document, I would have spent hours reading it before getting back with
more questions.
What am I trying to say? Please add something requiring those asking for
help to pay attention and spend some time in trying to understand the
answers that have been given, because they have been given for free and
after having spent hours trying to understand where I was wrong. You guys
helped me out back then and I'm grateful for that.
Unless something like that gets in the CoC I should probably leave the
group before forcing you in the embarrassing situation where you will have
to kick me out :-P
I hear you, and I've felt the same frustration in the past myself when I've
put a lot of time and effort into giving someone a thoughtful reply, and
it's clear that they haven't taken the time to read it. It can really annoy
me too!

I do however believe that it's vital that those of us with knowledge to
share to act as leaders in every sense of the word, and set a good example
in our behaviour for everyone else in the community to follow. That means,
in my experience, sometimes tolerating behaviour that we find irritating.

Remember that as painful as it can be, the experience of being irritated,
frustrated or even angry is very different to the experience of being
intimidated, frightened or abused.

What we're saying with the CoC is that no matter how frustrated you feel,
it's not OK to act aggressively. Can we agree that's a reasonable request?

I'm not active enough on this group lately to have witnessed the behaviour
you're talking about, but I think you seem like someone who's open to
acknowledging, reflecting on and learning from your mistakes. I've
deliberately worded the guiding principle "We are tolerant" to show that
we'll do whatever we can to help resolve disagreements amicably and
constructively, preferably without having to kick anyone off. Could we word
this section better so that you're less worried?
Post by Roberto Lo Giacco
Cheers,
Roberto
Post by Matt Wynne
cheers,
Matt
—
+44(0)7974430184
https://cucumber.io
https://twitter.com/mattwynne
The Cucumber logo is the intellectual property of Cucumber Ltd, a limited
company registered in Scotland, number 456793.
UK Headquarters: Cucumber Ltd, Drumsyniebeg, Lochgoilhead, Cairndow,
Argyll, PA24 8AN UK.
CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: The information in this e-mail is confidential
and privileged; it is intended for use solely by the individual or entity
named as the recipient hereof. Disclosure, copying, distribution, or use of
the contents of this e-mail by persons other than the intended recipient is
strictly prohibited and may violate applicable laws. If you have received
this e-mail in error, please delete the original message and notify us by
email immediately. Thank you. Cucumber Ltd.
--
The Cucumber logo is the intellectual property of Cucumber Ltd, a limited
company registered in Scotland, number 456793.

UK Headquarters: Cucumber Ltd, Drumsyniebeg, Lochgoilhead, Cairndow,
Argyll, PA24 8AN UK.

CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: The information in this e-mail is confidential and
privileged; it is intended for use solely by the individual or entity named
as the recipient hereof. Disclosure, copying, distribution, or use of the
contents of this e-mail by persons other than the intended recipient is
strictly prohibited and may violate applicable laws. If you have received
this e-mail in error, please delete the original message and notify us by
email immediately. Thank you. Cucumber Ltd.
--
Posting rules: http://cukes.info/posting-rules.html
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Andrew Premdas
2016-04-04 20:49:02 UTC
Permalink
I would hope that this community would be tolerant of its main
contributors being occasionally peeved, when answers are ignored or
discounted. After all people who have given vast amounts of their time
(such as Roberto) to try and help others deserve great consideration. There
have been a number of notorious cases of Codes of Conduct being abused to
villify someone who has in some way or other made a comment/statement that
has caused great offence to certain groups of people. We have to remember a
few things:

- accurate communication is very challenging (surely this is a key reason
for the vey existence of cucumber!!)
- communcation by text is even more challenging
- one persons bad behaviour may be someoene else's normal behaviour
- the response too 'bad behaviour' should be gentle, educative and
considerate. In other words it should be good behaviour. Retribution is not
good behaviour, and banning people should almost never happen (excluding
spammers!)
Post by Matt Wynne
Hi Roberto,
Post by Roberto Lo Giacco
Post by Matt Wynne
Hi all,
At a recent meetup of the core team in Copenhagen, we discussed the
issue of the lack of diversity in the contributions to the open-source
project. We have a great diverse range of people using Cucumber and
attending our conferences and meetups, but we’d like to encourage more
people to feel welcome to help with the open-source too.
We decided that a code of conduct would be a good first step. The CoC
will apply to this mailing list as well as other Cucumber venues, so please
give it a read and share your support / feedback.
https://github.com/cucumber/cucumber/blob/code-of-conduct/CODE_OF_CONDUCT.md
https://github.com/cucumber/cucumber/pull/22
I perfectly understand your points and the reason why you want to apply
this CoC
Great!
Post by Roberto Lo Giacco
on the other hand I feel like you are trying to apply rules only to those
answering questions when it comes to this group....
That feeling is unfounded. :) In fact when I drafted this CoC on the plane
back from Copenhagen, I was really just thinking about the open source
projects, and trying to describe the way I think we already do behave, so
that new visitors would be able to easily realise what a welcoming
community I believe we already are.
So this wasn't designed with the mailing list in mind, but I do think it
should apply everywhere.
I might have had an inappropriate behavior, probably more often than I
Post by Roberto Lo Giacco
should have, but I would like people receiving my consultancy for free to
respect my time by spending some of theirs investigating what I wrote...
Sure, nobody has invited me to this forum and this forum owe me nothing
for what I contributed so I'm free to leave or stay, but I must obey the
rules. Makes a lot of sense to me.
On the other hand all the rules seem to apply to the contributors only
and I feel like I will be kicked out very quickly.
I know your goal is not to exclude anybody, but you must also admit it's
really tough to stay calm and polite when you keep saying the same thing
over and over and just being ignored. I've been on the other side of the
barricade and I know it's not always easy to understand something which
might seems obvious to everybody else. But when I have been given a link or
a document, I would have spent hours reading it before getting back with
more questions.
What am I trying to say? Please add something requiring those asking for
help to pay attention and spend some time in trying to understand the
answers that have been given, because they have been given for free and
after having spent hours trying to understand where I was wrong. You guys
helped me out back then and I'm grateful for that.
Unless something like that gets in the CoC I should probably leave the
group before forcing you in the embarrassing situation where you will have
to kick me out :-P
I hear you, and I've felt the same frustration in the past myself when
I've put a lot of time and effort into giving someone a thoughtful reply,
and it's clear that they haven't taken the time to read it. It can really
annoy me too!
I do however believe that it's vital that those of us with knowledge to
share to act as leaders in every sense of the word, and set a good example
in our behaviour for everyone else in the community to follow. That means,
in my experience, sometimes tolerating behaviour that we find irritating.
Remember that as painful as it can be, the experience of being irritated,
frustrated or even angry is very different to the experience of being
intimidated, frightened or abused.
What we're saying with the CoC is that no matter how frustrated you feel,
it's not OK to act aggressively. Can we agree that's a reasonable request?
I'm not active enough on this group lately to have witnessed the behaviour
you're talking about, but I think you seem like someone who's open to
acknowledging, reflecting on and learning from your mistakes. I've
deliberately worded the guiding principle "We are tolerant" to show that
we'll do whatever we can to help resolve disagreements amicably and
constructively, preferably without having to kick anyone off. Could we word
this section better so that you're less worried?
Post by Roberto Lo Giacco
Cheers,
Roberto
Post by Matt Wynne
cheers,
Matt
—
+44(0)7974430184
https://cucumber.io
https://twitter.com/mattwynne
The Cucumber logo is the intellectual property of Cucumber Ltd, a
limited company registered in Scotland, number 456793.
UK Headquarters: Cucumber Ltd, Drumsyniebeg, Lochgoilhead, Cairndow,
Argyll, PA24 8AN UK.
CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: The information in this e-mail is confidential
and privileged; it is intended for use solely by the individual or entity
named as the recipient hereof. Disclosure, copying, distribution, or use of
the contents of this e-mail by persons other than the intended recipient is
strictly prohibited and may violate applicable laws. If you have received
this e-mail in error, please delete the original message and notify us by
email immediately. Thank you. Cucumber Ltd.
The Cucumber logo is the intellectual property of Cucumber Ltd, a limited
company registered in Scotland, number 456793.
UK Headquarters: Cucumber Ltd, Drumsyniebeg, Lochgoilhead, Cairndow,
Argyll, PA24 8AN UK.
CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: The information in this e-mail is confidential and
privileged; it is intended for use solely by the individual or entity named
as the recipient hereof. Disclosure, copying, distribution, or use of the
contents of this e-mail by persons other than the intended recipient is
strictly prohibited and may violate applicable laws. If you have received
this e-mail in error, please delete the original message and notify us by
email immediately. Thank you. Cucumber Ltd.
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------------------------
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Mark Levison
2016-04-05 01:20:14 UTC
Permalink
Andrew, Matt, Roberto - I've not yet read the code of conduct although I
can see how one might help.

Part of what might address Roberto's very valid feeling of 'did they read
anything I wrote' - is creating (collaboratively) a standard reply/response
for these situations. Roberto could use it and know he wasn't violating
CoC. I've been part of a few Scrum(ish) mailing lists that I've left
because I didn't see the point in responding to people who weren't fully
engaged.

Cheers
Mark
Post by Andrew Premdas
I would hope that this community would be tolerant of its main
contributors being occasionally peeved, when answers are ignored or
discounted. After all people who have given vast amounts of their time
(such as Roberto) to try and help others deserve great consideration. There
have been a number of notorious cases of Codes of Conduct being abused to
villify someone who has in some way or other made a comment/statement that
has caused great offence to certain groups of people. We have to remember a
- accurate communication is very challenging (surely this is a key reason
for the vey existence of cucumber!!)
- communcation by text is even more challenging
- one persons bad behaviour may be someoene else's normal behaviour
- the response too 'bad behaviour' should be gentle, educative and
considerate. In other words it should be good behaviour. Retribution is not
good behaviour, and banning people should almost never happen (excluding
spammers!)
Post by Matt Wynne
Hi Roberto,
Post by Roberto Lo Giacco
Post by Matt Wynne
Hi all,
At a recent meetup of the core team in Copenhagen, we discussed the
issue of the lack of diversity in the contributions to the open-source
project. We have a great diverse range of people using Cucumber and
attending our conferences and meetups, but we’d like to encourage more
people to feel welcome to help with the open-source too.
We decided that a code of conduct would be a good first step. The CoC
will apply to this mailing list as well as other Cucumber venues, so please
give it a read and share your support / feedback.
https://github.com/cucumber/cucumber/blob/code-of-conduct/CODE_OF_CONDUCT.md
https://github.com/cucumber/cucumber/pull/22
I perfectly understand your points and the reason why you want to apply
this CoC
Great!
Post by Roberto Lo Giacco
on the other hand I feel like you are trying to apply rules only to
those answering questions when it comes to this group....
That feeling is unfounded. :) In fact when I drafted this CoC on the
plane back from Copenhagen, I was really just thinking about the open
source projects, and trying to describe the way I think we already do
behave, so that new visitors would be able to easily realise what a
welcoming community I believe we already are.
So this wasn't designed with the mailing list in mind, but I do think it
should apply everywhere.
I might have had an inappropriate behavior, probably more often than I
Post by Roberto Lo Giacco
should have, but I would like people receiving my consultancy for free to
respect my time by spending some of theirs investigating what I wrote...
Sure, nobody has invited me to this forum and this forum owe me nothing
for what I contributed so I'm free to leave or stay, but I must obey the
rules. Makes a lot of sense to me.
On the other hand all the rules seem to apply to the contributors only
and I feel like I will be kicked out very quickly.
I know your goal is not to exclude anybody, but you must also admit it's
really tough to stay calm and polite when you keep saying the same thing
over and over and just being ignored. I've been on the other side of the
barricade and I know it's not always easy to understand something which
might seems obvious to everybody else. But when I have been given a link or
a document, I would have spent hours reading it before getting back with
more questions.
What am I trying to say? Please add something requiring those asking for
help to pay attention and spend some time in trying to understand the
answers that have been given, because they have been given for free and
after having spent hours trying to understand where I was wrong. You guys
helped me out back then and I'm grateful for that.
Unless something like that gets in the CoC I should probably leave the
group before forcing you in the embarrassing situation where you will have
to kick me out :-P
I hear you, and I've felt the same frustration in the past myself when
I've put a lot of time and effort into giving someone a thoughtful reply,
and it's clear that they haven't taken the time to read it. It can really
annoy me too!
I do however believe that it's vital that those of us with knowledge to
share to act as leaders in every sense of the word, and set a good example
in our behaviour for everyone else in the community to follow. That means,
in my experience, sometimes tolerating behaviour that we find irritating.
Remember that as painful as it can be, the experience of being irritated,
frustrated or even angry is very different to the experience of being
intimidated, frightened or abused.
What we're saying with the CoC is that no matter how frustrated you feel,
it's not OK to act aggressively. Can we agree that's a reasonable request?
I'm not active enough on this group lately to have witnessed the
behaviour you're talking about, but I think you seem like someone who's
open to acknowledging, reflecting on and learning from your mistakes. I've
deliberately worded the guiding principle "We are tolerant" to show that
we'll do whatever we can to help resolve disagreements amicably and
constructively, preferably without having to kick anyone off. Could we word
this section better so that you're less worried?
Post by Roberto Lo Giacco
Cheers,
Roberto
Post by Matt Wynne
cheers,
Matt
—
+44(0)7974430184
https://cucumber.io
https://twitter.com/mattwynne
The Cucumber logo is the intellectual property of Cucumber Ltd, a
limited company registered in Scotland, number 456793.
UK Headquarters: Cucumber Ltd, Drumsyniebeg, Lochgoilhead, Cairndow,
Argyll, PA24 8AN UK.
CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: The information in this e-mail is confidential
and privileged; it is intended for use solely by the individual or entity
named as the recipient hereof. Disclosure, copying, distribution, or use of
the contents of this e-mail by persons other than the intended recipient is
strictly prohibited and may violate applicable laws. If you have received
this e-mail in error, please delete the original message and notify us by
email immediately. Thank you. Cucumber Ltd.
The Cucumber logo is the intellectual property of Cucumber Ltd, a limited
company registered in Scotland, number 456793.
UK Headquarters: Cucumber Ltd, Drumsyniebeg, Lochgoilhead, Cairndow,
Argyll, PA24 8AN UK.
CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: The information in this e-mail is confidential
and privileged; it is intended for use solely by the individual or entity
named as the recipient hereof. Disclosure, copying, distribution, or use of
the contents of this e-mail by persons other than the intended recipient is
strictly prohibited and may violate applicable laws. If you have received
this e-mail in error, please delete the original message and notify us by
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Matt Wynne
2016-04-05 19:30:53 UTC
Permalink
Hi Mark,
Post by Mark Levison
Andrew, Matt, Roberto - I've not yet read the code of conduct although I
can see how one might help.
Part of what might address Roberto's very valid feeling of 'did they read
anything I wrote' - is creating (collaboratively) a standard reply/response
for these situations. Roberto could use it and know he wasn't violating
CoC. I've been part of a few Scrum(ish) mailing lists that I've left
because I didn't see the point in responding to people who weren't fully
engaged.
This sounds like a good idea in principle, thanks for the suggestion! Can
you give us a concrete idea of what this standard response might say?
Post by Mark Levison
Cheers
Mark
Post by Andrew Premdas
I would hope that this community would be tolerant of its main
contributors being occasionally peeved, when answers are ignored or
discounted. After all people who have given vast amounts of their time
(such as Roberto) to try and help others deserve great consideration. There
have been a number of notorious cases of Codes of Conduct being abused to
villify someone who has in some way or other made a comment/statement that
has caused great offence to certain groups of people. We have to remember a
- accurate communication is very challenging (surely this is a key reason
for the vey existence of cucumber!!)
- communcation by text is even more challenging
- one persons bad behaviour may be someoene else's normal behaviour
- the response too 'bad behaviour' should be gentle, educative and
considerate. In other words it should be good behaviour. Retribution is not
good behaviour, and banning people should almost never happen (excluding
spammers!)
Post by Matt Wynne
Hi Roberto,
Post by Roberto Lo Giacco
Post by Matt Wynne
Hi all,
At a recent meetup of the core team in Copenhagen, we discussed the
issue of the lack of diversity in the contributions to the open-source
project. We have a great diverse range of people using Cucumber and
attending our conferences and meetups, but we’d like to encourage more
people to feel welcome to help with the open-source too.
We decided that a code of conduct would be a good first step. The CoC
will apply to this mailing list as well as other Cucumber venues, so please
give it a read and share your support / feedback.
https://github.com/cucumber/cucumber/blob/code-of-conduct/CODE_OF_CONDUCT.md
https://github.com/cucumber/cucumber/pull/22
I perfectly understand your points and the reason why you want to apply
this CoC
Great!
Post by Roberto Lo Giacco
on the other hand I feel like you are trying to apply rules only to
those answering questions when it comes to this group....
That feeling is unfounded. :) In fact when I drafted this CoC on the
plane back from Copenhagen, I was really just thinking about the open
source projects, and trying to describe the way I think we already do
behave, so that new visitors would be able to easily realise what a
welcoming community I believe we already are.
So this wasn't designed with the mailing list in mind, but I do think it
should apply everywhere.
I might have had an inappropriate behavior, probably more often than I
Post by Roberto Lo Giacco
should have, but I would like people receiving my consultancy for free to
respect my time by spending some of theirs investigating what I wrote...
Sure, nobody has invited me to this forum and this forum owe me nothing
for what I contributed so I'm free to leave or stay, but I must obey the
rules. Makes a lot of sense to me.
On the other hand all the rules seem to apply to the contributors only
and I feel like I will be kicked out very quickly.
I know your goal is not to exclude anybody, but you must also admit
it's really tough to stay calm and polite when you keep saying the same
thing over and over and just being ignored. I've been on the other side of
the barricade and I know it's not always easy to understand something which
might seems obvious to everybody else. But when I have been given a link or
a document, I would have spent hours reading it before getting back with
more questions.
What am I trying to say? Please add something requiring those asking
for help to pay attention and spend some time in trying to understand the
answers that have been given, because they have been given for free and
after having spent hours trying to understand where I was wrong. You guys
helped me out back then and I'm grateful for that.
Unless something like that gets in the CoC I should probably leave the
group before forcing you in the embarrassing situation where you will have
to kick me out :-P
I hear you, and I've felt the same frustration in the past myself when
I've put a lot of time and effort into giving someone a thoughtful reply,
and it's clear that they haven't taken the time to read it. It can really
annoy me too!
I do however believe that it's vital that those of us with knowledge to
share to act as leaders in every sense of the word, and set a good example
in our behaviour for everyone else in the community to follow. That means,
in my experience, sometimes tolerating behaviour that we find irritating.
Remember that as painful as it can be, the experience of being
irritated, frustrated or even angry is very different to the experience of
being intimidated, frightened or abused.
What we're saying with the CoC is that no matter how frustrated you
feel, it's not OK to act aggressively. Can we agree that's a reasonable
request?
I'm not active enough on this group lately to have witnessed the
behaviour you're talking about, but I think you seem like someone who's
open to acknowledging, reflecting on and learning from your mistakes. I've
deliberately worded the guiding principle "We are tolerant" to show that
we'll do whatever we can to help resolve disagreements amicably and
constructively, preferably without having to kick anyone off. Could we word
this section better so that you're less worried?
Post by Roberto Lo Giacco
Cheers,
Roberto
Post by Matt Wynne
cheers,
Matt
—
+44(0)7974430184
https://cucumber.io
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The Cucumber logo is the intellectual property of Cucumber Ltd, a
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the contents of this e-mail by persons other than the intended recipient is
strictly prohibited and may violate applicable laws. If you have received
this e-mail in error, please delete the original message and notify us by
email immediately. Thank you. Cucumber Ltd.
The Cucumber logo is the intellectual property of Cucumber Ltd, a
limited company registered in Scotland, number 456793.
UK Headquarters: Cucumber Ltd, Drumsyniebeg, Lochgoilhead, Cairndow,
Argyll, PA24 8AN UK.
CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: The information in this e-mail is confidential
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strictly prohibited and may violate applicable laws. If you have received
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UK Headquarters: Cucumber Ltd, Drumsyniebeg, Lochgoilhead, Cairndow,
Argyll, PA24 8AN UK.

CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: The information in this e-mail is confidential and
privileged; it is intended for use solely by the individual or entity named
as the recipient hereof. Disclosure, copying, distribution, or use of the
contents of this e-mail by persons other than the intended recipient is
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Mark Levison
2016-04-07 03:32:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matt Wynne
Hi Mark,
This sounds like a good idea in principle, thanks for the suggestion! Can
you give us a concrete idea of what this standard response might say?
​Matt - you do have a sense of humour. An concrete example guy, is asking a
scrum guy for an example. Examples are harder for me. It will take a good
glass of wine (or two).

First potential example:
You asked a question of the Cucumber community and I took the time to
answer your question. I feel that your response ignores most of my reply.
Please take the time to reconsider what I said.

-- My goal was to make a neutral statement with respect to the recipient
and also acknowledge the legitimate feelings of the person who took the
time to respond.
-- You might also consider a stock response that points to other tools that
might be better suited to some of the tasks that people misuse cucumber for
(i.e. test automation - RobotFramework).

Better quality will only happen when I find wine :-)

Cheers
Mark
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<http://agilepainrelief.com/courses/montreal> | Toronto
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Matt Wynne
2016-04-05 19:29:55 UTC
Permalink
Hi Andrew,
There have been a number of notorious cases of Codes of Conduct being
abused to villify someone who has in some way or other made a
comment/statement that has caused great offence to certain groups of people.
To be honest, that's why I've been holding back from pushing this idea up
until now. Some other CoC's I've seen have a punitive tone that I really
dislike. I was inspired by ones like http://hood.ie/code-of-conduct/
and https://github.com/Homebrew/brew/blob/master/CODEOFCONDUCT.md that are
much more positive. I hope ours can be like that too.
- accurate communication is very challenging (surely this is a key reason
for the vey existence of cucumber!!)
- communcation by text is even more challenging
- one persons bad behaviour may be someoene else's normal behaviour
- the response too 'bad behaviour' should be gentle, educative and
considerate. In other words it should be good behaviour. Retribution is not
good behaviour, and banning people should almost never happen (excluding
spammers!)
I wholeheartedly agree, and in fact these are exactly the sentiments that
were aired in the session in Copenhagen, and I had hoped I'd captured those
in the Guiding Principles[1] section. Can you suggest some improvements to
better capture that point of view?

[1] https://github.com/cucumber/cucumber/blob/code-of-conduct/CODE_OF_CONDUCT.md#guiding-principles
Post by Matt Wynne
Hi Roberto,
Post by Roberto Lo Giacco
Post by Matt Wynne
Hi all,
At a recent meetup of the core team in Copenhagen, we discussed the
issue of the lack of diversity in the contributions to the open-source
project. We have a great diverse range of people using Cucumber and
attending our conferences and meetups, but we’d like to encourage more
people to feel welcome to help with the open-source too.
We decided that a code of conduct would be a good first step. The CoC
will apply to this mailing list as well as other Cucumber venues, so please
give it a read and share your support / feedback.
https://github.com/cucumber/cucumber/blob/code-of-conduct/CODE_OF_CONDUCT.md
https://github.com/cucumber/cucumber/pull/22
I perfectly understand your points and the reason why you want to apply
this CoC
Great!
Post by Roberto Lo Giacco
on the other hand I feel like you are trying to apply rules only to
those answering questions when it comes to this group....
That feeling is unfounded. :) In fact when I drafted this CoC on the
plane back from Copenhagen, I was really just thinking about the open
source projects, and trying to describe the way I think we already do
behave, so that new visitors would be able to easily realise what a
welcoming community I believe we already are.
So this wasn't designed with the mailing list in mind, but I do think it
should apply everywhere.
I might have had an inappropriate behavior, probably more often than I
Post by Roberto Lo Giacco
should have, but I would like people receiving my consultancy for free to
respect my time by spending some of theirs investigating what I wrote...
Sure, nobody has invited me to this forum and this forum owe me nothing
for what I contributed so I'm free to leave or stay, but I must obey the
rules. Makes a lot of sense to me.
On the other hand all the rules seem to apply to the contributors only
and I feel like I will be kicked out very quickly.
I know your goal is not to exclude anybody, but you must also admit it's
really tough to stay calm and polite when you keep saying the same thing
over and over and just being ignored. I've been on the other side of the
barricade and I know it's not always easy to understand something which
might seems obvious to everybody else. But when I have been given a link or
a document, I would have spent hours reading it before getting back with
more questions.
What am I trying to say? Please add something requiring those asking for
help to pay attention and spend some time in trying to understand the
answers that have been given, because they have been given for free and
after having spent hours trying to understand where I was wrong. You guys
helped me out back then and I'm grateful for that.
Unless something like that gets in the CoC I should probably leave the
group before forcing you in the embarrassing situation where you will have
to kick me out :-P
I hear you, and I've felt the same frustration in the past myself when
I've put a lot of time and effort into giving someone a thoughtful reply,
and it's clear that they haven't taken the time to read it. It can really
annoy me too!
I do however believe that it's vital that those of us with knowledge to
share to act as leaders in every sense of the word, and set a good example
in our behaviour for everyone else in the community to follow. That means,
in my experience, sometimes tolerating behaviour that we find irritating.
Remember that as painful as it can be, the experience of being irritated,
frustrated or even angry is very different to the experience of being
intimidated, frightened or abused.
What we're saying with the CoC is that no matter how frustrated you feel,
it's not OK to act aggressively. Can we agree that's a reasonable request?
I'm not active enough on this group lately to have witnessed the
behaviour you're talking about, but I think you seem like someone who's
open to acknowledging, reflecting on and learning from your mistakes. I've
deliberately worded the guiding principle "We are tolerant" to show that
we'll do whatever we can to help resolve disagreements amicably and
constructively, preferably without having to kick anyone off. Could we word
this section better so that you're less worried?
Post by Roberto Lo Giacco
Cheers,
Roberto
Post by Matt Wynne
cheers,
Matt
—
+44(0)7974430184
https://cucumber.io
https://twitter.com/mattwynne
The Cucumber logo is the intellectual property of Cucumber Ltd, a
limited company registered in Scotland, number 456793.
UK Headquarters: Cucumber Ltd, Drumsyniebeg, Lochgoilhead, Cairndow,
Argyll, PA24 8AN UK.
CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: The information in this e-mail is confidential
and privileged; it is intended for use solely by the individual or entity
named as the recipient hereof. Disclosure, copying, distribution, or use of
the contents of this e-mail by persons other than the intended recipient is
strictly prohibited and may violate applicable laws. If you have received
this e-mail in error, please delete the original message and notify us by
email immediately. Thank you. Cucumber Ltd.
The Cucumber logo is the intellectual property of Cucumber Ltd, a limited
company registered in Scotland, number 456793.
UK Headquarters: Cucumber Ltd, Drumsyniebeg, Lochgoilhead, Cairndow,
Argyll, PA24 8AN UK.
CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: The information in this e-mail is confidential
and privileged; it is intended for use solely by the individual or entity
named as the recipient hereof. Disclosure, copying, distribution, or use of
the contents of this e-mail by persons other than the intended recipient is
strictly prohibited and may violate applicable laws. If you have received
this e-mail in error, please delete the original message and notify us by
email immediately. Thank you. Cucumber Ltd.
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--
The Cucumber logo is the intellectual property of Cucumber Ltd, a limited
company registered in Scotland, number 456793.

UK Headquarters: Cucumber Ltd, Drumsyniebeg, Lochgoilhead, Cairndow,
Argyll, PA24 8AN UK.

CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: The information in this e-mail is confidential and
privileged; it is intended for use solely by the individual or entity named
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contents of this e-mail by persons other than the intended recipient is
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Andrew Premdas
2016-04-07 16:42:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matt Wynne
Hi Andrew,
There have been a number of notorious cases of Codes of Conduct being
abused to villify someone who has in some way or other made a
comment/statement that has caused great offence to certain groups of people.
To be honest, that's why I've been holding back from pushing this idea up
until now. Some other CoC's I've seen have a punitive tone that I really
dislike. I was inspired by ones like http://hood.ie/code-of-conduct/ and
https://github.com/Homebrew/brew/blob/master/CODEOFCONDUCT.md that are
much more positive. I hope ours can be like that too.
- accurate communication is very challenging (surely this is a key reason
for the vey existence of cucumber!!)
- communcation by text is even more challenging
- one persons bad behaviour may be someoene else's normal behaviour
- the response too 'bad behaviour' should be gentle, educative and
considerate. In other words it should be good behaviour. Retribution is not
good behaviour, and banning people should almost never happen (excluding
spammers!)
I wholeheartedly agree, and in fact these are exactly the sentiments that
were aired in the session in Copenhagen, and I had hoped I'd captured those
in the Guiding Principles[1] section. Can you suggest some improvements to
better capture that point of view?
I've only skim read the code and I'm not really interested in refining the
document, because ...

- its a large piece of text that is open to lots of different
interpretations
- large pieces of text as canonical single points of truth, are by nature
prone to abuse. You only have to look at Law/Legislation to see this
- IMO a code of conduct should be seen as a set of guidelines, not a set of
rules. So fluffy and friendly is far better than precise.

A key thing for me as that we have a broad agreement as a community about
how we use the code.

Anyhow good luck with it.

Andrew



[1]
https://github.com/cucumber/cucumber/blob/code-of-conduct/CODE_OF_CONDUCT.md#guiding-principles
Post by Matt Wynne
Hi Roberto,
Post by Roberto Lo Giacco
Post by Matt Wynne
Hi all,
At a recent meetup of the core team in Copenhagen, we discussed the
issue of the lack of diversity in the contributions to the open-source
project. We have a great diverse range of people using Cucumber and
attending our conferences and meetups, but we’d like to encourage more
people to feel welcome to help with the open-source too.
We decided that a code of conduct would be a good first step. The CoC
will apply to this mailing list as well as other Cucumber venues, so please
give it a read and share your support / feedback.
https://github.com/cucumber/cucumber/blob/code-of-conduct/CODE_OF_CONDUCT.md
https://github.com/cucumber/cucumber/pull/22
I perfectly understand your points and the reason why you want to apply
this CoC
Great!
Post by Roberto Lo Giacco
on the other hand I feel like you are trying to apply rules only to
those answering questions when it comes to this group....
That feeling is unfounded. :) In fact when I drafted this CoC on the
plane back from Copenhagen, I was really just thinking about the open
source projects, and trying to describe the way I think we already do
behave, so that new visitors would be able to easily realise what a
welcoming community I believe we already are.
So this wasn't designed with the mailing list in mind, but I do think it
should apply everywhere.
I might have had an inappropriate behavior, probably more often than I
Post by Roberto Lo Giacco
should have, but I would like people receiving my consultancy for free to
respect my time by spending some of theirs investigating what I wrote...
Sure, nobody has invited me to this forum and this forum owe me nothing
for what I contributed so I'm free to leave or stay, but I must obey the
rules. Makes a lot of sense to me.
On the other hand all the rules seem to apply to the contributors only
and I feel like I will be kicked out very quickly.
I know your goal is not to exclude anybody, but you must also admit it's
really tough to stay calm and polite when you keep saying the same thing
over and over and just being ignored. I've been on the other side of the
barricade and I know it's not always easy to understand something which
might seems obvious to everybody else. But when I have been given a link or
a document, I would have spent hours reading it before getting back with
more questions.
What am I trying to say? Please add something requiring those asking for
help to pay attention and spend some time in trying to understand the
answers that have been given, because they have been given for free and
after having spent hours trying to understand where I was wrong. You guys
helped me out back then and I'm grateful for that.
Unless something like that gets in the CoC I should probably leave the
group before forcing you in the embarrassing situation where you will have
to kick me out :-P
I hear you, and I've felt the same frustration in the past myself when
I've put a lot of time and effort into giving someone a thoughtful reply,
and it's clear that they haven't taken the time to read it. It can really
annoy me too!
I do however believe that it's vital that those of us with knowledge to
share to act as leaders in every sense of the word, and set a good example
in our behaviour for everyone else in the community to follow. That means,
in my experience, sometimes tolerating behaviour that we find irritating.
Remember that as painful as it can be, the experience of being irritated,
frustrated or even angry is very different to the experience of being
intimidated, frightened or abused.
What we're saying with the CoC is that no matter how frustrated you feel,
it's not OK to act aggressively. Can we agree that's a reasonable request?
I'm not active enough on this group lately to have witnessed the
behaviour you're talking about, but I think you seem like someone who's
open to acknowledging, reflecting on and learning from your mistakes. I've
deliberately worded the guiding principle "We are tolerant" to show that
we'll do whatever we can to help resolve disagreements amicably and
constructively, preferably without having to kick anyone off. Could we word
this section better so that you're less worried?
Post by Roberto Lo Giacco
Cheers,
Roberto
Post by Matt Wynne
cheers,
Matt
—
+44(0)7974430184
https://cucumber.io
https://twitter.com/mattwynne
The Cucumber logo is the intellectual property of Cucumber Ltd, a
limited company registered in Scotland, number 456793.
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The Cucumber logo is the intellectual property of Cucumber Ltd, a limited
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Andrew Premdas
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The Cucumber logo is the intellectual property of Cucumber Ltd, a limited
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David Kowis
2016-04-18 04:07:30 UTC
Permalink
Here's my two cents, I'm pretty sure it doesn't violate the draft CoC,
but maybe I'm just over-thinking it.
Post by Matt Wynne
Hi Andrew,
There have been a number of notorious cases of Codes of Conduct
being abused to villify someone who has in some way or other made a
comment/statement that has caused great offence to certain groups of people.
To be honest, that's why I've been holding back from pushing this idea
up until now. Some other CoC's I've seen have a punitive tone that I
really dislike. I was inspired by ones
like http://hood.ie/code-of-conduct/
and https://github.com/Homebrew/brew/blob/master/CODEOFCONDUCT.md that
are much more positive. I hope ours can be like that too.
This is my primary concern with CoC's as well. I don't think this one
raises my hackles any.

I do feel a bit it sides with the person being offended more than
encouraging someone to attempt not to take offense with something
someone said. Example: "If someone has asked you to stop doing whatever
you're doing - or if you notice they don't like what you're doing - stop
and apologize, even if it seems unreasonable to you." That really places
all the blame on the person doing the activity because someone said "I'm
Offended or upset by your behavior." That may not have been the case,
but I get real nervous about these kinds of things, because they turn
into legalese, and it can then end up being used to bash someone over
the head.

On a positive side, it does mention things like casual profanity might
make some uncomfortable, please avoid it. I think that's good stuff,
being someone who is too casual with profanity (shame on me.)

I'm kinda sad that the world we live in even requires such things to
exist :( Not everyone's going to be ultra-kind to everyone, and
sometimes, myself included, people need to understand that someone's
going to be mean to you. This does not included repetitive intentional
bullying, that's just rude. But sometimes it happens without realizing
it. Bah, now I'm even getting caught up in the spiral of "who meant to
do a thing to whom?" *sigh*

I don't think it's bad, I wish we didn't have to have one, I'm glad you
focused hard on trying to avoid punitive language :)
Post by Matt Wynne
- accurate communication is very challenging (surely this is a key
reason for the vey existence of cucumber!!)
- communcation by text is even more challenging
- one persons bad behaviour may be someoene else's normal behaviour
- the response too 'bad behaviour' should be gentle, educative and
considerate. In other words it should be good behaviour. Retribution
is not good behaviour, and banning people should almost never happen
(excluding spammers!)
I wholeheartedly agree, and in fact these are exactly the sentiments
that were aired in the session in Copenhagen, and I had hoped I'd
captured those in the Guiding Principles[1] section. Can you suggest
some improvements to better capture that point of view?
[1] https://github.com/cucumber/cucumber/blob/code-of-conduct/CODE_OF_CONDUCT.md#guiding-principles
I'd be very interested to see those improvements, as I'm not very good
at phrasing these things well myself.

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Cezary Baginski
2016-04-07 21:45:32 UTC
Permalink
Respectfully, I think this is a waste of time. For many reasons, including:

1. Already handled by GitHub terms of service (which apparently no one has ever read):

https://help.github.com/articles/github-terms-of-service/

(see section G.8).

So, if the activity doesn't qualify there, there's no point.

2. Abused aren't looking for "documents" to protect them from abusers. They aren't going to shout "yay, it's safe now, so let's just all start massively contributing to all kinds of projects from now on!

3. Abusers aren't going to read those and say "darn, I can't abuse anyone anymore!".

4. To really deal with abuse, you need 2 documents, and neither are technical enough to be included in EVERY DAMN GEM INSTALLED ON MY SYSYEM. One document for "abusers" to understand they've crossed the line while expressing their frustration and made someone feel crap (which doesn't even solve their own problem) and one for the "abused" to either learn some emotional strength and control... or report the bastards to GitHub staff.

5. People overreact easily. It's human nature. Yet, no one teaches how to deal with people who have overreacted. "Banning" and "warning" doesn't really help much. That's why I like e.g. SemVer doccument - it doesn't tell you what to do to someone when they break the Api without a major number change. It gives you context, explanation, details, and even a FAQ.

6. Often, it's hard to distinguish who is being abused and who is really doing the abusing (consciously or not). Ask any decent family therapist.

7. Whats the point even of creating YACOC? (Yet Another...).

8. Reward nice people and the problem will solve itself. Usually the hardest working people are the least appreciated. If they get bitter after a few years of grinding, then maybe... it isn't really their fault that they're human?

9. Coding well is hard work. No amount of "CoCs" are going to change that.

10. "Diversity problems" are either fake or irrelevant. Maybe if mostly white Caucasian heterosexual males are crazy enough to sink huge portions of their lives as open-source software developers, maybe there's an actual reason? Is this "lack-of-diversity" or "cyberabuse" really the biggest obstacle? If so, I need to see statistical proof than "another" CoC actually addresses the root cause here. Not the root cause of abuse (which I have yet to see for my own eyes) but for the "lack of contributors". If being better at coding means being more antisocial, then women are less likely to be antisocial to fit the bill. If it takes speaking English well enough, there's likely going to be less contributors from Spain, China, Japan, etc. (Hey, the CoC is in English, right? Isn't that discriminating enough? Shouldn't every possible translation be included in EVERY blessed open-source project?

10. If all I see is icons and cat photos for avatars, how could I even discriminate anyone? Offend people with cat avatars?

11. There are people dying from car accidents, cancer and other nasty thing. Things software could help solve. When did "Diversity" become priority one thing? Seriously, if someone is committed to coding, they'll do it no matter how much is against them. It's not like "verbal abusers" are forever physically holding victims by the wrists.

12. If you're being abused, get professional help for crying out loud. Non-physical abuse has to be accepted as such to take effect. If assholes are screwing up your life, don't wait for assholes to "change their ways" as a result of banning them. That's a poor life strategy, because there are simply too many assholes out there to let yourself stay an easy victim.

13. Discussions like this. Abusers helped: 0. Abusers stopped: 0.

Can we all just get back to coding?
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Matt Wynne
2016-04-15 18:41:28 UTC
Permalink
Cezary,
Post by Cezary Baginski
https://help.github.com/articles/github-terms-of-service/
(see section G.8).
So, if the activity doesn't qualify there, there's no point.
2. Abused aren't looking for "documents" to protect them from abusers.
They aren't going to shout "yay, it's safe now, so let's just all start
massively contributing to all kinds of projects from now on!
3. Abusers aren't going to read those and say "darn, I can't abuse anyone anymore!".
4. To really deal with abuse, you need 2 documents, and neither are
technical enough to be included in EVERY DAMN GEM INSTALLED ON MY SYSYEM.
One document for "abusers" to understand they've crossed the line while
expressing their frustration and made someone feel crap (which doesn't even
solve their own problem) and one for the "abused" to either learn some
emotional strength and control... or report the bastards to GitHub staff.
5. People overreact easily. It's human nature. Yet, no one teaches how to
deal with people who have overreacted. "Banning" and "warning" doesn't
really help much. That's why I like e.g. SemVer doccument - it doesn't tell
you what to do to someone when they break the Api without a major number
change. It gives you context, explanation, details, and even a FAQ.
6. Often, it's hard to distinguish who is being abused and who is really
doing the abusing (consciously or not). Ask any decent family therapist.
7. Whats the point even of creating YACOC? (Yet Another...).
8. Reward nice people and the problem will solve itself. Usually the
hardest working people are the least appreciated. If they get bitter after
a few years of grinding, then maybe... it isn't really their fault that
they're human?
9. Coding well is hard work. No amount of "CoCs" are going to change that.
10. "Diversity problems" are either fake or irrelevant. Maybe if mostly
white Caucasian heterosexual males are crazy enough to sink huge portions
of their lives as open-source software developers, maybe there's an actual
reason? Is this "lack-of-diversity" or "cyberabuse" really the biggest
obstacle? If so, I need to see statistical proof than "another" CoC
actually addresses the root cause here. Not the root cause of abuse (which
I have yet to see for my own eyes) but for the "lack of contributors". If
being better at coding means being more antisocial, then women are less
likely to be antisocial to fit the bill. If it takes speaking English well
enough, there's likely going to be less contributors from Spain, China,
Japan, etc. (Hey, the CoC is in English, right? Isn't that discriminating
enough? Shouldn't every possible translation be included in EVERY blessed
open-source project?
10. If all I see is icons and cat photos for avatars, how could I even
discriminate anyone? Offend people with cat avatars?
11. There are people dying from car accidents, cancer and other nasty
thing. Things software could help solve. When did "Diversity" become
priority one thing? Seriously, if someone is committed to coding, they'll
do it no matter how much is against them. It's not like "verbal abusers"
are forever physically holding victims by the wrists.
12. If you're being abused, get professional help for crying out loud.
Non-physical abuse has to be accepted as such to take effect. If assholes
are screwing up your life, don't wait for assholes to "change their ways"
as a result of banning them. That's a poor life strategy, because there are
simply too many assholes out there to let yourself stay an easy victim.
13. Discussions like this. Abusers helped: 0. Abusers stopped: 0.
Can we all just get back to coding?
Thank you for sharing your opinion. I'm sure there are other people who
share this view who did not have the courage to speak up.

I'm afraid however that in this instance it's you who has wasted your time.
As I've already said. I'm not interested in having a debate about whether a
code of conduct is a good idea. The senior members of this project are
committed to providing leadership on the issue of diversity in open-source,
and while you're right that a code of conduct is by no means sufficient, we
believe it is a necessary starting point to help encourage contributions
from a broader range of people.

That can only be a good thing.

cheers,
Matt
--
The Cucumber logo is the intellectual property of Cucumber Ltd, a limited
company registered in Scotland, number 456793.

UK Headquarters: Cucumber Ltd, Drumsyniebeg, Lochgoilhead, Cairndow,
Argyll, PA24 8AN UK.

CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: The information in this e-mail is confidential and
privileged; it is intended for use solely by the individual or entity named
as the recipient hereof. Disclosure, copying, distribution, or use of the
contents of this e-mail by persons other than the intended recipient is
strictly prohibited and may violate applicable laws. If you have received
this e-mail in error, please delete the original message and notify us by
email immediately. Thank you. Cucumber Ltd.
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Tom Cloyd
2016-04-15 19:05:17 UTC
Permalink
I very rarely participate here, in good part because my fundamental work in
life is treating those who've been seriously abused by other people (or
less often just by disasters, personal and otherwise, of different sorts).
I'm a psychotherapist who specializes in PTSD and dissociative identity
disorder. I code because I love doing it and because it solves certain
practical problems for me, but I actually have very little time for it.

I much appreciate Matt's statement about the commitment of "the senior
members of this group" and their commitment to "providing leadership"
relative to the issue of diversity. Those are well-chosen words. I am
convinced that not only is this the only ethically defensible position we
can take, but that it's also functionally the most intelligent. Any
well-educated systems-oriented biologist, social psychologist, or cultural
anthropologist (my other professional commitment) will tell you that
diverse groups are stronger, more adaptive, and more likely to be here 500
(or even 100) years from now. Why would NOT want to visibly and actively
promote diversity in ANY group they care about? It is the most rationally
justifiable position to take.

Socio-cultural diversity is not a fringe issue. How can you be alive and
breathing in the 21st century and not know that? And if you don't care
about those "other people", well, you are part of the problem we're trying
to eliminate. Not-caring has huge human costs over the long run. Every
study history, for Pete's sake? Intolerance and indifference kills people.

I run a large group on Google Plus, and we definitely have a COC
("Behavioral Guidelines") for this very reason. Every newcomer is expected
to read it, and I remind people of it periodically. We have members from
every corner of the earth, and disruptive behavior is essentially
nonexistent.

I'm pleased to see this leadership in the Cucumber community - out front
and visible. And a COC that makes a clear statement about welcoming
diversity, while only a piece of the solution, DOES make a clear statement
about values. That harms no one and is likely helpful.

Tom
Post by Matt Wynne
Cezary,
Post by Cezary Baginski
https://help.github.com/articles/github-terms-of-service/
(see section G.8).
So, if the activity doesn't qualify there, there's no point.
2. Abused aren't looking for "documents" to protect them from abusers.
They aren't going to shout "yay, it's safe now, so let's just all start
massively contributing to all kinds of projects from now on!
3. Abusers aren't going to read those and say "darn, I can't abuse anyone anymore!".
4. To really deal with abuse, you need 2 documents, and neither are
technical enough to be included in EVERY DAMN GEM INSTALLED ON MY SYSYEM.
One document for "abusers" to understand they've crossed the line while
expressing their frustration and made someone feel crap (which doesn't even
solve their own problem) and one for the "abused" to either learn some
emotional strength and control... or report the bastards to GitHub staff.
5. People overreact easily. It's human nature. Yet, no one teaches how to
deal with people who have overreacted. "Banning" and "warning" doesn't
really help much. That's why I like e.g. SemVer doccument - it doesn't tell
you what to do to someone when they break the Api without a major number
change. It gives you context, explanation, details, and even a FAQ.
6. Often, it's hard to distinguish who is being abused and who is really
doing the abusing (consciously or not). Ask any decent family therapist.
7. Whats the point even of creating YACOC? (Yet Another...).
8. Reward nice people and the problem will solve itself. Usually the
hardest working people are the least appreciated. If they get bitter after
a few years of grinding, then maybe... it isn't really their fault that
they're human?
9. Coding well is hard work. No amount of "CoCs" are going to change that.
10. "Diversity problems" are either fake or irrelevant. Maybe if mostly
white Caucasian heterosexual males are crazy enough to sink huge portions
of their lives as open-source software developers, maybe there's an actual
reason? Is this "lack-of-diversity" or "cyberabuse" really the biggest
obstacle? If so, I need to see statistical proof than "another" CoC
actually addresses the root cause here. Not the root cause of abuse (which
I have yet to see for my own eyes) but for the "lack of contributors". If
being better at coding means being more antisocial, then women are less
likely to be antisocial to fit the bill. If it takes speaking English well
enough, there's likely going to be less contributors from Spain, China,
Japan, etc. (Hey, the CoC is in English, right? Isn't that discriminating
enough? Shouldn't every possible translation be included in EVERY blessed
open-source project?
10. If all I see is icons and cat photos for avatars, how could I even
discriminate anyone? Offend people with cat avatars?
11. There are people dying from car accidents, cancer and other nasty
thing. Things software could help solve. When did "Diversity" become
priority one thing? Seriously, if someone is committed to coding, they'll
do it no matter how much is against them. It's not like "verbal abusers"
are forever physically holding victims by the wrists.
12. If you're being abused, get professional help for crying out loud.
Non-physical abuse has to be accepted as such to take effect. If assholes
are screwing up your life, don't wait for assholes to "change their ways"
as a result of banning them. That's a poor life strategy, because there are
simply too many assholes out there to let yourself stay an easy victim.
13. Discussions like this. Abusers helped: 0. Abusers stopped: 0.
Can we all just get back to coding?
Thank you for sharing your opinion. I'm sure there are other people who
share this view who did not have the courage to speak up.
I'm afraid however that in this instance it's you who has wasted your
time. As I've already said. I'm not interested in having a debate about
whether a code of conduct is a good idea. The senior members of this
project are committed to providing leadership on the issue of diversity in
open-source, and while you're right that a code of conduct is by no means
sufficient, we believe it is a necessary starting point to help encourage
contributions from a broader range of people.
That can only be a good thing.
cheers,
Matt
The Cucumber logo is the intellectual property of Cucumber Ltd, a limited
company registered in Scotland, number 456793.
UK Headquarters: Cucumber Ltd, Drumsyniebeg, Lochgoilhead, Cairndow,
Argyll, PA24 8AN UK.
CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: The information in this e-mail is confidential and
privileged; it is intended for use solely by the individual or entity named
as the recipient hereof. Disclosure, copying, distribution, or use of the
contents of this e-mail by persons other than the intended recipient is
strictly prohibited and may violate applicable laws. If you have received
this e-mail in error, please delete the original message and notify us by
email immediately. Thank you. Cucumber Ltd.
--
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"How lovely to think that no one need wait a moment, we can start now,
start slowly
changing the world! How lovely that everyone, great and small, can make
their
contribution toward introducing justice straightaway... And you can always,
always
give something, even if it is only kindness!" ~ Anne Frank

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Tom Cloyd, MS MA LMHC (WA)
Psychotherapist (psychological trauma, dissociative disorders)
Spokane, Washington, U.S.A: (435) 272-3332
<< ***@tomcloyd.com >> (email)
<< TomCloyd.com >> (website)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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Cezary Baginski
2016-04-21 20:07:09 UTC
Permalink
I like your response very much, Tom.

I just have one distinction to suggest: "diversity" is a good indicator of
a healthy system. However, it's a terrible goal in of itself for people to
pursue. I'm all for removing friction towards diversity. But artificially
"enforcing" it will just breed abuse.

Also, "leadership" means: "by example". So it's less about "getting others
to comply", but promoting the behavior by DISPLAYING it's values by example.

With so much knowledge in psychology, I'm sure you're aware of how eagerly
people emulate those they look up to.

So the best way to promote diversity is: to show how being different
*doesn't* prevent yourself from being active.

E.g. I am different. And mentioned as "courageous". I have a reputation on
the line. If I'm frustrated and I have an opinion counter to everyone else
here (to the extent people want to admit), then I'm "leading" by showing
honesty.

Compliance is not sign of leadership. Neither is "enforcing".

If diversity is beneficial, it needs no "rules". Just leaders. A true
leader will attempt transformation to create consensus. An evil cult leader
will remove everyone who isn't a blind follower.

Sometimes the very diversity in one area is causing a lack of diversity in
another area.

E.g. diversity of culture means e.g. Asians aren't force to abandon their
culture and embrace the American culture. "Unfortunately" that means
statistically more Asians will excel at maths.

So cultural diversity limits the diversity in a given area of skill.

Therefore, it's a fallacy to assume diversity has any inherent benefit in
of itself. Without a specific context, it's just a platitude at best.
Post by Tom Cloyd
I very rarely participate here, in good part because my fundamental work
in life is treating those who've been seriously abused by other people (or
less often just by disasters, personal and otherwise, of different sorts).
I'm a psychotherapist who specializes in PTSD and dissociative identity
disorder. I code because I love doing it and because it solves certain
practical problems for me, but I actually have very little time for it.
I much appreciate Matt's statement about the commitment of "the senior
members of this group" and their commitment to "providing leadership"
relative to the issue of diversity. Those are well-chosen words. I am
convinced that not only is this the only ethically defensible position we
can take, but that it's also functionally the most intelligent. Any
well-educated systems-oriented biologist, social psychologist, or cultural
anthropologist (my other professional commitment) will tell you that
diverse groups are stronger, more adaptive, and more likely to be here 500
(or even 100) years from now. Why would NOT want to visibly and actively
promote diversity in ANY group they care about? It is the most rationally
justifiable position to take.
Socio-cultural diversity is not a fringe issue. How can you be alive and
breathing in the 21st century and not know that? And if you don't care
about those "other people", well, you are part of the problem we're trying
to eliminate. Not-caring has huge human costs over the long run. Every
study history, for Pete's sake? Intolerance and indifference kills people.
I run a large group on Google Plus, and we definitely have a COC
("Behavioral Guidelines") for this very reason. Every newcomer is expected
to read it, and I remind people of it periodically. We have members from
every corner of the earth, and disruptive behavior is essentially
nonexistent.
I'm pleased to see this leadership in the Cucumber community - out front
and visible. And a COC that makes a clear statement about welcoming
diversity, while only a piece of the solution, DOES make a clear statement
about values. That harms no one and is likely helpful.
Tom
Post by Matt Wynne
Cezary,
Post by Cezary Baginski
https://help.github.com/articles/github-terms-of-service/
(see section G.8).
So, if the activity doesn't qualify there, there's no point.
2. Abused aren't looking for "documents" to protect them from abusers.
They aren't going to shout "yay, it's safe now, so let's just all start
massively contributing to all kinds of projects from now on!
3. Abusers aren't going to read those and say "darn, I can't abuse anyone anymore!".
4. To really deal with abuse, you need 2 documents, and neither are
technical enough to be included in EVERY DAMN GEM INSTALLED ON MY SYSYEM.
One document for "abusers" to understand they've crossed the line while
expressing their frustration and made someone feel crap (which doesn't even
solve their own problem) and one for the "abused" to either learn some
emotional strength and control... or report the bastards to GitHub staff.
5. People overreact easily. It's human nature. Yet, no one teaches how
to deal with people who have overreacted. "Banning" and "warning" doesn't
really help much. That's why I like e.g. SemVer doccument - it doesn't tell
you what to do to someone when they break the Api without a major number
change. It gives you context, explanation, details, and even a FAQ.
6. Often, it's hard to distinguish who is being abused and who is really
doing the abusing (consciously or not). Ask any decent family therapist.
7. Whats the point even of creating YACOC? (Yet Another...).
8. Reward nice people and the problem will solve itself. Usually the
hardest working people are the least appreciated. If they get bitter after
a few years of grinding, then maybe... it isn't really their fault that
they're human?
9. Coding well is hard work. No amount of "CoCs" are going to change that.
10. "Diversity problems" are either fake or irrelevant. Maybe if mostly
white Caucasian heterosexual males are crazy enough to sink huge portions
of their lives as open-source software developers, maybe there's an actual
reason? Is this "lack-of-diversity" or "cyberabuse" really the biggest
obstacle? If so, I need to see statistical proof than "another" CoC
actually addresses the root cause here. Not the root cause of abuse (which
I have yet to see for my own eyes) but for the "lack of contributors". If
being better at coding means being more antisocial, then women are less
likely to be antisocial to fit the bill. If it takes speaking English well
enough, there's likely going to be less contributors from Spain, China,
Japan, etc. (Hey, the CoC is in English, right? Isn't that discriminating
enough? Shouldn't every possible translation be included in EVERY blessed
open-source project?
10. If all I see is icons and cat photos for avatars, how could I even
discriminate anyone? Offend people with cat avatars?
11. There are people dying from car accidents, cancer and other nasty
thing. Things software could help solve. When did "Diversity" become
priority one thing? Seriously, if someone is committed to coding, they'll
do it no matter how much is against them. It's not like "verbal abusers"
are forever physically holding victims by the wrists.
12. If you're being abused, get professional help for crying out loud.
Non-physical abuse has to be accepted as such to take effect. If assholes
are screwing up your life, don't wait for assholes to "change their ways"
as a result of banning them. That's a poor life strategy, because there are
simply too many assholes out there to let yourself stay an easy victim.
13. Discussions like this. Abusers helped: 0. Abusers stopped: 0.
Can we all just get back to coding?
Thank you for sharing your opinion. I'm sure there are other people who
share this view who did not have the courage to speak up.
I'm afraid however that in this instance it's you who has wasted your
time. As I've already said. I'm not interested in having a debate about
whether a code of conduct is a good idea. The senior members of this
project are committed to providing leadership on the issue of diversity in
open-source, and while you're right that a code of conduct is by no means
sufficient, we believe it is a necessary starting point to help encourage
contributions from a broader range of people.
That can only be a good thing.
cheers,
Matt
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Mark Levison
2016-04-21 23:09:45 UTC
Permalink
Cezary - I have neither the time nor energy to go through line by line your
comments. So I just wish to touch one issue.

Background on me: I'm not a Cucumber expert (as my contributions to this
group make clear). My expertise, work and business are around building high
performance teams and organizations. I use Cucumber as a collaboration tool
within (and between) teams. I'm not trying to be boastful, just make it
clear where I spend my time and research energy.

Diversity - when you're trying to build resilient high performance teams,
both in the real and virtual world, diversity of thought is a key
requirement. While diversity of gender, race, religion, ethnicity, etc
don't alone guarantee diversity of thought they have a great likelihood of
increasing it. When I look at the majority of organizations that I consult
with I see some racial diversity and very limited gender diversity. The
Agile Community is pleasantly a little better, but nonetheless we've got a
long way to go. People like myself don't want to cut out your voice, we
want to give voice other people who haven't raised it yet. My imprecise
measure of the real world vs the software development community, we're way
out of whack. When you ask people from backgrounds different from our own
why they don't participate more often many cite things like tone and
disrespect. All Matt and Aslak are trying to do is to grow a community that
welcomes people who currently feel less safe.

I've done the best to explain why diversity is important, if the grammar is
lacking please understand I'm stealing time from my kids to help you see
one aspect of why this matters.

If you need more thoughts perhaps we should invite Sal Freudenburg (see:
http://www.infoq.com/presentations/psychology-agile) for more depth and
science.

Matt and Aslak - I hope my explanation fits with your goals.

Cheers
Mark
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Cezary Baginski
2016-04-22 00:06:34 UTC
Permalink
No problem about not reading everything I wrote. I'm misunderstood, so it's
up to me to explain. (A back-and-forth would take weeks).

About diversity:

For details - ready my reply to Tom Cloyd. It's short and to the point -
and it's *exactly* where the disconnect is between you and me.

In a gist: diversity is a good sign. But it's a terrible goal to pursue.

Reasoning: if diversity provides benefits, those benefits should already be
the goal. Diversity should be a side effect at best. It's meaningless as a
metric. (Especially not without a context).

In my opinion, the word *"diversity" *inside a CoC would be better replaced
with the word *"respect*". Or even *"respect of opinion*".

A lot clearer, less ambiguous and a great goal in of itself. It can still
be abused, but at least it's a bit hard to misunderstand.

So I'm not against diversity. I'm against using that as an end-goal in of
itself.
Post by Mark Levison
Cezary - I have neither the time nor energy to go through line by line
your comments. So I just wish to touch one issue.
Background on me: I'm not a Cucumber expert (as my contributions to this
group make clear). My expertise, work and business are around building high
performance teams and organizations. I use Cucumber as a collaboration tool
within (and between) teams. I'm not trying to be boastful, just make it
clear where I spend my time and research energy.
Diversity - when you're trying to build resilient high performance teams,
both in the real and virtual world, diversity of thought is a key
requirement. While diversity of gender, race, religion, ethnicity, etc
don't alone guarantee diversity of thought they have a great likelihood of
increasing it. When I look at the majority of organizations that I consult
with I see some racial diversity and very limited gender diversity. The
Agile Community is pleasantly a little better, but nonetheless we've got a
long way to go. People like myself don't want to cut out your voice, we
want to give voice other people who haven't raised it yet. My imprecise
measure of the real world vs the software development community, we're way
out of whack. When you ask people from backgrounds different from our own
why they don't participate more often many cite things like tone and
disrespect. All Matt and Aslak are trying to do is to grow a community that
welcomes people who currently feel less safe.
I've done the best to explain why diversity is important, if the grammar
is lacking please understand I'm stealing time from my kids to help you see
one aspect of why this matters.
http://www.infoq.com/presentations/psychology-agile
<http://www.google.com/url?q=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.infoq.com%2Fpresentations%2Fpsychology-agile&sa=D&sntz=1&usg=AFQjCNFacsl6uYqhi5eEkn4yKR6j01g0nw>)
for more depth and science.
Matt and Aslak - I hope my explanation fits with your goals.
Cheers
Mark
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Mark Levison
2016-04-22 00:21:48 UTC
Permalink
Ahh that summary brings it closer. You and I might agree (mostly).

Cheers
Mark
Post by Cezary Baginski
No problem about not reading everything I wrote. I'm misunderstood, so
it's up to me to explain. (A back-and-forth would take weeks).
For details - ready my reply to Tom Cloyd. It's short and to the point -
and it's *exactly* where the disconnect is between you and me.
In a gist: diversity is a good sign. But it's a terrible goal to pursue.
Reasoning: if diversity provides benefits, those benefits should already
be the goal. Diversity should be a side effect at best. It's meaningless as
a metric. (Especially not without a context).
In my opinion, the word *"diversity" *inside a CoC would be better
replaced with the word *"respect*". Or even *"respect of opinion*".
A lot clearer, less ambiguous and a great goal in of itself. It can still
be abused, but at least it's a bit hard to misunderstand.
So I'm not against diversity. I'm against using that as an end-goal in of
itself.
Post by Mark Levison
Cezary - I have neither the time nor energy to go through line by line
your comments. So I just wish to touch one issue.
Background on me: I'm not a Cucumber expert (as my contributions to this
group make clear). My expertise, work and business are around building high
performance teams and organizations. I use Cucumber as a collaboration tool
within (and between) teams. I'm not trying to be boastful, just make it
clear where I spend my time and research energy.
Diversity - when you're trying to build resilient high performance teams,
both in the real and virtual world, diversity of thought is a key
requirement. While diversity of gender, race, religion, ethnicity, etc
don't alone guarantee diversity of thought they have a great likelihood of
increasing it. When I look at the majority of organizations that I consult
with I see some racial diversity and very limited gender diversity. The
Agile Community is pleasantly a little better, but nonetheless we've got a
long way to go. People like myself don't want to cut out your voice, we
want to give voice other people who haven't raised it yet. My imprecise
measure of the real world vs the software development community, we're way
out of whack. When you ask people from backgrounds different from our own
why they don't participate more often many cite things like tone and
disrespect. All Matt and Aslak are trying to do is to grow a community that
welcomes people who currently feel less safe.
I've done the best to explain why diversity is important, if the grammar
is lacking please understand I'm stealing time from my kids to help you see
one aspect of why this matters.
http://www.infoq.com/presentations/psychology-agile
<http://www.google.com/url?q=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.infoq.com%2Fpresentations%2Fpsychology-agile&sa=D&sntz=1&usg=AFQjCNFacsl6uYqhi5eEkn4yKR6j01g0nw>)
for more depth and science.
Matt and Aslak - I hope my explanation fits with your goals.
Cheers
Mark
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Andrew Premdas
2016-04-22 06:47:50 UTC
Permalink
It seems that this community is just as vulnerable as many others to the
poison that COC's seem to be producing all around the internet. Whilst
their intent is honourable, their effect seems to be mostly
counter-productive. I've read every post on this thread. The main emootion
I feel having done that is dispair. At the moment I just want to withdraw
from the community for a while. All the content of this thread whilst
eloquent, thoughtful, polite and considered has (IMO) no place on this
mailing list. Its a Cucumber mailing list where we should be talking about
Cucumber, BDD, how nested steps are evil (or even sh*t), how big tables
stink and why little tables are at least smelly. I shall say no more

All best

Andrew
Post by Mark Levison
Ahh that summary brings it closer. You and I might agree (mostly).
Cheers
Mark
Post by Cezary Baginski
No problem about not reading everything I wrote. I'm misunderstood, so
it's up to me to explain. (A back-and-forth would take weeks).
For details - ready my reply to Tom Cloyd. It's short and to the point -
and it's *exactly* where the disconnect is between you and me.
In a gist: diversity is a good sign. But it's a terrible goal to pursue.
Reasoning: if diversity provides benefits, those benefits should already
be the goal. Diversity should be a side effect at best. It's meaningless as
a metric. (Especially not without a context).
In my opinion, the word *"diversity" *inside a CoC would be better
replaced with the word *"respect*". Or even *"respect of opinion*".
A lot clearer, less ambiguous and a great goal in of itself. It can still
be abused, but at least it's a bit hard to misunderstand.
So I'm not against diversity. I'm against using that as an end-goal in of
itself.
Post by Mark Levison
Cezary - I have neither the time nor energy to go through line by line
your comments. So I just wish to touch one issue.
Background on me: I'm not a Cucumber expert (as my contributions to this
group make clear). My expertise, work and business are around building high
performance teams and organizations. I use Cucumber as a collaboration tool
within (and between) teams. I'm not trying to be boastful, just make it
clear where I spend my time and research energy.
Diversity - when you're trying to build resilient high performance
teams, both in the real and virtual world, diversity of thought is a key
requirement. While diversity of gender, race, religion, ethnicity, etc
don't alone guarantee diversity of thought they have a great likelihood of
increasing it. When I look at the majority of organizations that I consult
with I see some racial diversity and very limited gender diversity. The
Agile Community is pleasantly a little better, but nonetheless we've got a
long way to go. People like myself don't want to cut out your voice, we
want to give voice other people who haven't raised it yet. My imprecise
measure of the real world vs the software development community, we're way
out of whack. When you ask people from backgrounds different from our own
why they don't participate more often many cite things like tone and
disrespect. All Matt and Aslak are trying to do is to grow a community that
welcomes people who currently feel less safe.
I've done the best to explain why diversity is important, if the grammar
is lacking please understand I'm stealing time from my kids to help you see
one aspect of why this matters.
http://www.infoq.com/presentations/psychology-agile
<http://www.google.com/url?q=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.infoq.com%2Fpresentations%2Fpsychology-agile&sa=D&sntz=1&usg=AFQjCNFacsl6uYqhi5eEkn4yKR6j01g0nw>)
for more depth and science.
Matt and Aslak - I hope my explanation fits with your goals.
Cheers
Mark
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Tom Cloyd
2016-04-22 08:04:50 UTC
Permalink
Andrew,

That the idea of COCs provokes discussion and dispute is hardly remarkable.
To characterize it as "poison" is simply not accurate. People will
disagree. Discussion is how positions are clarified and conflicts are
resolved. This is just ordinary social process, and it's healthy.

Cezary,

I'm glad you find in my response something of merit. But please consider:
All persisting social groups develop cultures, part of which is a body of
thought about what is and is not appropriate behavior. This fact as long
ago established by academic cultural anthropology and sociology. If
sufficient internal awareness of the culture evolves, formal statements of
what is and is not appropriate behavior may be made. They may even be
codified in some sort of legal framework. Add clear statements about
constitutes crossing an expectational boundary, and an enforcement
mechanism, and you have a legal codification. My point is that codification
may or may not come with sanctions.

A codification of what is usual is different from one about what is
expected. The latter is more of a values statement. In a subculture, such
as computer programming, where the ability and contributions of all sorts
of people, especially women, are a documented fact, but which is also known
currently to consist predominantly of white males (in the USA and Europe),
there would appear to be a cultural problem. To make an overt statement
about valuing diversity is one (and just one) tactic in pursuit of the goal
of increased diversity. That's why such a statement is a good idea.

Why overtly promote diversity? There is a clear reason for this, which you
appear not to understand. Systems (including but not limited to social
systems) which embody diversity of knowledge and skill have a known
propensity for responding adaptively to challenge far better than those
which do not. This is well known in biology, and in agriculture (ever heard
of the mono-cropping problem?), to take just two from among many. In
biology, we simpy say "diversity promotes survival", and so it is.

In groups and organizations, one promotes diversity because it CAUSES
increased quality in the group product. Good managers of all sorts know
this. Diversity is valued primarily because of what it causes.

So, when you state that diversity is "...a terrible goal in of itself for
people to pursue", you simply don't understand why diversity matters. You
say "I'm all for removing friction towards diversity". There may or may not
be resistance to diversity, but the problem is more fundamentally LACK of
diversity, for whatever reason. It's not about "enforcing" anything. It's
about clarifying group values and goals, specifically so that some brown or
black skinned female, or someone with an ethnic background quite divergent
from the European background most all of here have will anticipate being
welcomed here, and so will invite themselves into the group. We should
(logically) WANT this to happen because it makes the group stronger, and so
say that we value that which causes this increase in strength: diversity.

You and a few others seem quite anxious about all this. I am not sure why.
No one is proposing the formation of a secret police corps to enforce
anything. I perceive a fundamental ignorance: people of liberal persuasion
are simply NOT inclined to tolerate autocracy or extremism of any kind,
much less dogma about much of anything. In general, education liberalises,
humanizes, makes gentle. It's not about conformity or enforcement - those
concepts are just alien. I am deeply puzzled that there are people who do
not grasp this.

Many computer languages have formal specifications. Those are technical
values statements - a code of conduct for code itself. No problem there,
right? Over time, most such specifications seem to tend toward inclusion of
additional functionality, not to rigid limitations. My metaphor may be a
bit strained, but surely you see the point. Having a bit of formal
structure creates increases functionality, basically in all things. This
the way of things. Why would this group be any different?
I think you would profit from looking more deeply at your anxiety about all
this. I truly don't think it's justified.

Tom

On 04/21/2016 01:07 PM, Cezary Baginski wrote:

I like your response very much, Tom.

I just have one distinction to suggest: "diversity" is a good indicator of
a healthy system. However, it's a terrible goal in of itself for people to
pursue. I'm all for removing friction towards diversity. But artificially
"enforcing" it will just breed abuse.

Also, "leadership" means: "by example". So it's less about "getting others
to comply", but promoting the behavior by DISPLAYING it's values by example.

With so much knowledge in psychology, I'm sure you're aware of how eagerly
people emulate those they look up to.

So the best way to promote diversity is: to show how being different
*doesn't* prevent yourself from being active.

E.g. I am different. And mentioned as "courageous". I have a reputation on
the line. If I'm frustrated and I have an opinion counter to everyone else
here (to the extent people want to admit), then I'm "leading" by showing
honesty.

Compliance is not sign of leadership. Neither is "enforcing".

If diversity is beneficial, it needs no "rules". Just leaders. A true
leader will attempt transformation to create consensus. An evil cult leader
will remove everyone who isn't a blind follower.

Sometimes the very diversity in one area is causing a lack of diversity in
another area.

E.g. diversity of culture means e.g. Asians aren't force to abandon their
culture and embrace the American culture. "Unfortunately" that means
statistically more Asians will excel at maths.

So cultural diversity limits the diversity in a given area of skill.

Therefore, it's a fallacy to assume diversity has any inherent benefit in
of itself. Without a specific context, it's just a platitude at best.
Post by Tom Cloyd
I very rarely participate here, in good part because my fundamental work
in life is treating those who've been seriously abused by other people (or
less often just by disasters, personal and otherwise, of different sorts).
I'm a psychotherapist who specializes in PTSD and dissociative identity
disorder. I code because I love doing it and because it solves certain
practical problems for me, but I actually have very little time for it.
I much appreciate Matt's statement about the commitment of "the senior
members of this group" and their commitment to "providing leadership"
relative to the issue of diversity. Those are well-chosen words. I am
convinced that not only is this the only ethically defensible position we
can take, but that it's also functionally the most intelligent. Any
well-educated systems-oriented biologist, social psychologist, or cultural
anthropologist (my other professional commitment) will tell you that
diverse groups are stronger, more adaptive, and more likely to be here 500
(or even 100) years from now. Why would NOT want to visibly and actively
promote diversity in ANY group they care about? It is the most rationally
justifiable position to take.
Socio-cultural diversity is not a fringe issue. How can you be alive and
breathing in the 21st century and not know that? And if you don't care
about those "other people", well, you are part of the problem we're trying
to eliminate. Not-caring has huge human costs over the long run. Every
study history, for Pete's sake? Intolerance and indifference kills people.
I run a large group on Google Plus, and we definitely have a COC
("Behavioral Guidelines") for this very reason. Every newcomer is expected
to read it, and I remind people of it periodically. We have members from
every corner of the earth, and disruptive behavior is essentially
nonexistent.
I'm pleased to see this leadership in the Cucumber community - out front
and visible. And a COC that makes a clear statement about welcoming
diversity, while only a piece of the solution, DOES make a clear statement
about values. That harms no one and is likely helpful.
Tom
It seems that this community is just as vulnerable as many others to the
poison that COC's seem to be producing all around the internet. Whilst
their intent is honourable, their effect seems to be mostly
counter-productive. I've read every post on this thread. The main emootion
I feel having done that is dispair. At the moment I just want to withdraw
from the community for a while. All the content of this thread whilst
eloquent, thoughtful, polite and considered has (IMO) no place on this
mailing list. Its a Cucumber mailing list where we should be talking about
Cucumber, BDD, how nested steps are evil (or even sh*t), how big tables
stink and why little tables are at least smelly. I shall say no more
All best
Andrew
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"How lovely to think that no one need wait a moment, we can start now,
start slowly
changing the world! How lovely that everyone, great and small, can make
their
contribution toward introducing justice straightaway... And you can always,
always
give something, even if it is only kindness!" ~ Anne Frank

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Tom Cloyd, MS MA LMHC (WA)
Psychotherapist (psychological trauma, dissociative disorders)
Spokane, Washington, U.S.A: (435) 272-3332
<< ***@tomcloyd.com >> (email)
<< TomCloyd.com >> (website)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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Andrew Premdas
2016-04-22 09:00:07 UTC
Permalink
Tom,

It seems to me that an appropriate mailing list for the discussion and
disputes about COC's would be a mailing list dedicated to COC's, not this
mailing list. In that location this discussion would be on topic and
hopefully informative. In this location this discussion is distracting and
intimidating, and clearly is causing harm to the group. Whether there is
some benefit to counteract this is open to debate.

Mailing lists are designed to be narrowly focused on a particular topic.
Here, in the Cucumber mailing list, discussion has been used to clarify
positions and resolve conflicts about how to make the best use of Cucumber
for many years. This has been, and hopefully will continue to be the
ordinary social process of this little nook of the internet.

Generally bringing discussion about contentious off-topic issues into
mailing lists and forums is harmful. Unfortunately COC's by their nature,
seem to do this.

My preferred COC for this group is:

1. Be nice
2. Talk about Cucumber

I really don't think there is need for anything else.

That said, I do respect the good intentions behind the introduction of the
COC.

All best

ANdrew
Post by Mark Levison
Andrew,
That the idea of COCs provokes discussion and dispute is hardly
remarkable. To characterize it as "poison" is simply not accurate. People
will disagree. Discussion is how positions are clarified and conflicts are
resolved. This is just ordinary social process, and it's healthy.
Cezary,
All persisting social groups develop cultures, part of which is a body of
thought about what is and is not appropriate behavior. This fact as long
ago established by academic cultural anthropology and sociology. If
sufficient internal awareness of the culture evolves, formal statements of
what is and is not appropriate behavior may be made. They may even be
codified in some sort of legal framework. Add clear statements about
constitutes crossing an expectational boundary, and an enforcement
mechanism, and you have a legal codification. My point is that codification
may or may not come with sanctions.
A codification of what is usual is different from one about what is
expected. The latter is more of a values statement. In a subculture, such
as computer programming, where the ability and contributions of all sorts
of people, especially women, are a documented fact, but which is also known
currently to consist predominantly of white males (in the USA and Europe),
there would appear to be a cultural problem. To make an overt statement
about valuing diversity is one (and just one) tactic in pursuit of the goal
of increased diversity. That's why such a statement is a good idea.
Why overtly promote diversity? There is a clear reason for this, which you
appear not to understand. Systems (including but not limited to social
systems) which embody diversity of knowledge and skill have a known
propensity for responding adaptively to challenge far better than those
which do not. This is well known in biology, and in agriculture (ever heard
of the mono-cropping problem?), to take just two from among many. In
biology, we simpy say "diversity promotes survival", and so it is.
In groups and organizations, one promotes diversity because it CAUSES
increased quality in the group product. Good managers of all sorts know
this. Diversity is valued primarily because of what it causes.
So, when you state that diversity is "...a terrible goal in of itself for
people to pursue", you simply don't understand why diversity matters. You
say "I'm all for removing friction towards diversity". There may or may not
be resistance to diversity, but the problem is more fundamentally LACK of
diversity, for whatever reason. It's not about "enforcing" anything. It's
about clarifying group values and goals, specifically so that some brown or
black skinned female, or someone with an ethnic background quite divergent
from the European background most all of here have will anticipate being
welcomed here, and so will invite themselves into the group. We should
(logically) WANT this to happen because it makes the group stronger, and so
say that we value that which causes this increase in strength: diversity.
You and a few others seem quite anxious about all this. I am not sure why.
No one is proposing the formation of a secret police corps to enforce
anything. I perceive a fundamental ignorance: people of liberal persuasion
are simply NOT inclined to tolerate autocracy or extremism of any kind,
much less dogma about much of anything. In general, education liberalises,
humanizes, makes gentle. It's not about conformity or enforcement - those
concepts are just alien. I am deeply puzzled that there are people who do
not grasp this.
Many computer languages have formal specifications. Those are technical
values statements - a code of conduct for code itself. No problem there,
right? Over time, most such specifications seem to tend toward inclusion of
additional functionality, not to rigid limitations. My metaphor may be a
bit strained, but surely you see the point. Having a bit of formal
structure creates increases functionality, basically in all things. This
the way of things. Why would this group be any different?
I think you would profit from looking more deeply at your anxiety about
all this. I truly don't think it's justified.
Tom
I like your response very much, Tom.
I just have one distinction to suggest: "diversity" is a good indicator of
a healthy system. However, it's a terrible goal in of itself for people to
pursue. I'm all for removing friction towards diversity. But artificially
"enforcing" it will just breed abuse.
Also, "leadership" means: "by example". So it's less about "getting others
to comply", but promoting the behavior by DISPLAYING it's values by example.
With so much knowledge in psychology, I'm sure you're aware of how eagerly
people emulate those they look up to.
So the best way to promote diversity is: to show how being different
*doesn't* prevent yourself from being active.
E.g. I am different. And mentioned as "courageous". I have a reputation on
the line. If I'm frustrated and I have an opinion counter to everyone else
here (to the extent people want to admit), then I'm "leading" by showing
honesty.
Compliance is not sign of leadership. Neither is "enforcing".
If diversity is beneficial, it needs no "rules". Just leaders. A true
leader will attempt transformation to create consensus. An evil cult leader
will remove everyone who isn't a blind follower.
Sometimes the very diversity in one area is causing a lack of diversity in
another area.
E.g. diversity of culture means e.g. Asians aren't force to abandon their
culture and embrace the American culture. "Unfortunately" that means
statistically more Asians will excel at maths.
So cultural diversity limits the diversity in a given area of skill.
Therefore, it's a fallacy to assume diversity has any inherent benefit in
of itself. Without a specific context, it's just a platitude at best.
Post by Tom Cloyd
I very rarely participate here, in good part because my fundamental work
in life is treating those who've been seriously abused by other people (or
less often just by disasters, personal and otherwise, of different sorts).
I'm a psychotherapist who specializes in PTSD and dissociative identity
disorder. I code because I love doing it and because it solves certain
practical problems for me, but I actually have very little time for it.
I much appreciate Matt's statement about the commitment of "the senior
members of this group" and their commitment to "providing leadership"
relative to the issue of diversity. Those are well-chosen words. I am
convinced that not only is this the only ethically defensible position we
can take, but that it's also functionally the most intelligent. Any
well-educated systems-oriented biologist, social psychologist, or cultural
anthropologist (my other professional commitment) will tell you that
diverse groups are stronger, more adaptive, and more likely to be here 500
(or even 100) years from now. Why would NOT want to visibly and actively
promote diversity in ANY group they care about? It is the most rationally
justifiable position to take.
Socio-cultural diversity is not a fringe issue. How can you be alive and
breathing in the 21st century and not know that? And if you don't care
about those "other people", well, you are part of the problem we're trying
to eliminate. Not-caring has huge human costs over the long run. Every
study history, for Pete's sake? Intolerance and indifference kills people.
I run a large group on Google Plus, and we definitely have a COC
("Behavioral Guidelines") for this very reason. Every newcomer is expected
to read it, and I remind people of it periodically. We have members from
every corner of the earth, and disruptive behavior is essentially
nonexistent.
I'm pleased to see this leadership in the Cucumber community - out front
and visible. And a COC that makes a clear statement about welcoming
diversity, while only a piece of the solution, DOES make a clear statement
about values. That harms no one and is likely helpful.
Tom
It seems that this community is just as vulnerable as many others to the
poison that COC's seem to be producing all around the internet. Whilst
their intent is honourable, their effect seems to be mostly
counter-productive. I've read every post on this thread. The main emootion
I feel having done that is dispair. At the moment I just want to withdraw
from the community for a while. All the content of this thread whilst
eloquent, thoughtful, polite and considered has (IMO) no place on this
mailing list. Its a Cucumber mailing list where we should be talking about
Cucumber, BDD, how nested steps are evil (or even sh*t), how big tables
stink and why little tables are at least smelly. I shall say no more
All best
Andrew
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"How lovely to think that no one need wait a moment, we can start now,
start slowly
changing the world! How lovely that everyone, great and small, can make
their
contribution toward introducing justice straightaway... And you can
always, always
give something, even if it is only kindness!" ~ Anne Frank
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Tom Cloyd, MS MA LMHC (WA)
Psychotherapist (psychological trauma, dissociative disorders)
Spokane, Washington, U.S.A: (435) 272-3332
<< TomCloyd.com >> (website)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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Matt Wynne
2016-04-22 08:10:53 UTC
Permalink
Andrew,

To be fair, I did ask that

a) we not have a debate about whether or not to have CoC, because I knew
that would be boring.
b) we did the discussions about the CoC on the ticket.

The CoC is live now, and as far as I'm concerned there's nothing more to
discuss. Let's get back to those heated debates about nested steps!
Post by Andrew Premdas
It seems that this community is just as vulnerable as many others to the
poison that COC's seem to be producing all around the internet. Whilst
their intent is honourable, their effect seems to be mostly
counter-productive. I've read every post on this thread. The main emootion
I feel having done that is dispair. At the moment I just want to withdraw
from the community for a while. All the content of this thread whilst
eloquent, thoughtful, polite and considered has (IMO) no place on this
mailing list. Its a Cucumber mailing list where we should be talking about
Cucumber, BDD, how nested steps are evil (or even sh*t), how big tables
stink and why little tables are at least smelly. I shall say no more
All best
Andrew
Post by Mark Levison
Ahh that summary brings it closer. You and I might agree (mostly).
Cheers
Mark
Post by Cezary Baginski
No problem about not reading everything I wrote. I'm misunderstood, so
it's up to me to explain. (A back-and-forth would take weeks).
For details - ready my reply to Tom Cloyd. It's short and to the point -
and it's *exactly* where the disconnect is between you and me.
In a gist: diversity is a good sign. But it's a terrible goal to pursue.
Reasoning: if diversity provides benefits, those benefits should already
be the goal. Diversity should be a side effect at best. It's meaningless as
a metric. (Especially not without a context).
In my opinion, the word *"diversity" *inside a CoC would be better
replaced with the word *"respect*". Or even *"respect of opinion*".
A lot clearer, less ambiguous and a great goal in of itself. It can
still be abused, but at least it's a bit hard to misunderstand.
So I'm not against diversity. I'm against using that as an end-goal in
of itself.
Post by Mark Levison
Cezary - I have neither the time nor energy to go through line by line
your comments. So I just wish to touch one issue.
Background on me: I'm not a Cucumber expert (as my contributions to
this group make clear). My expertise, work and business are around building
high performance teams and organizations. I use Cucumber as a collaboration
tool within (and between) teams. I'm not trying to be boastful, just make
it clear where I spend my time and research energy.
Diversity - when you're trying to build resilient high performance
teams, both in the real and virtual world, diversity of thought is a key
requirement. While diversity of gender, race, religion, ethnicity, etc
don't alone guarantee diversity of thought they have a great likelihood of
increasing it. When I look at the majority of organizations that I consult
with I see some racial diversity and very limited gender diversity. The
Agile Community is pleasantly a little better, but nonetheless we've got a
long way to go. People like myself don't want to cut out your voice, we
want to give voice other people who haven't raised it yet. My imprecise
measure of the real world vs the software development community, we're way
out of whack. When you ask people from backgrounds different from our own
why they don't participate more often many cite things like tone and
disrespect. All Matt and Aslak are trying to do is to grow a community that
welcomes people who currently feel less safe.
I've done the best to explain why diversity is important, if the
grammar is lacking please understand I'm stealing time from my kids to help
you see one aspect of why this matters.
If you need more thoughts perhaps we should invite Sal Freudenburg
(see: http://www.infoq.com/presentations/psychology-agile
<http://www.google.com/url?q=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.infoq.com%2Fpresentations%2Fpsychology-agile&sa=D&sntz=1&usg=AFQjCNFacsl6uYqhi5eEkn4yKR6j01g0nw>)
for more depth and science.
Matt and Aslak - I hope my explanation fits with your goals.
Cheers
Mark
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Andrew Premdas
2016-04-22 09:03:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark Levison
Andrew,
To be fair, I did ask that
a) we not have a debate about whether or not to have CoC, because I knew
that would be boring.
b) we did the discussions about the CoC on the ticket.
The CoC is live now, and as far as I'm concerned there's nothing more to
discuss. Let's get back to those heated debates about nested steps!
Thankyou Matt :)

As far as I'm concerned there is nothing more to discuss about nested steps
;) they're evil!
Post by Mark Levison
Post by Andrew Premdas
It seems that this community is just as vulnerable as many others to the
poison that COC's seem to be producing all around the internet. Whilst
their intent is honourable, their effect seems to be mostly
counter-productive. I've read every post on this thread. The main emootion
I feel having done that is dispair. At the moment I just want to withdraw
from the community for a while. All the content of this thread whilst
eloquent, thoughtful, polite and considered has (IMO) no place on this
mailing list. Its a Cucumber mailing list where we should be talking about
Cucumber, BDD, how nested steps are evil (or even sh*t), how big tables
stink and why little tables are at least smelly. I shall say no more
All best
Andrew
Post by Mark Levison
Ahh that summary brings it closer. You and I might agree (mostly).
Cheers
Mark
On Thu, Apr 21, 2016 at 8:06 PM, Cezary Baginski <
Post by Cezary Baginski
No problem about not reading everything I wrote. I'm misunderstood, so
it's up to me to explain. (A back-and-forth would take weeks).
For details - ready my reply to Tom Cloyd. It's short and to the point
- and it's *exactly* where the disconnect is between you and me.
In a gist: diversity is a good sign. But it's a terrible goal to pursue.
Reasoning: if diversity provides benefits, those benefits should
already be the goal. Diversity should be a side effect at best. It's
meaningless as a metric. (Especially not without a context).
In my opinion, the word *"diversity" *inside a CoC would be better
replaced with the word *"respect*". Or even *"respect of opinion*".
A lot clearer, less ambiguous and a great goal in of itself. It can
still be abused, but at least it's a bit hard to misunderstand.
So I'm not against diversity. I'm against using that as an end-goal in
of itself.
Post by Mark Levison
Cezary - I have neither the time nor energy to go through line by line
your comments. So I just wish to touch one issue.
Background on me: I'm not a Cucumber expert (as my contributions to
this group make clear). My expertise, work and business are around building
high performance teams and organizations. I use Cucumber as a collaboration
tool within (and between) teams. I'm not trying to be boastful, just make
it clear where I spend my time and research energy.
Diversity - when you're trying to build resilient high performance
teams, both in the real and virtual world, diversity of thought is a key
requirement. While diversity of gender, race, religion, ethnicity, etc
don't alone guarantee diversity of thought they have a great likelihood of
increasing it. When I look at the majority of organizations that I consult
with I see some racial diversity and very limited gender diversity. The
Agile Community is pleasantly a little better, but nonetheless we've got a
long way to go. People like myself don't want to cut out your voice, we
want to give voice other people who haven't raised it yet. My imprecise
measure of the real world vs the software development community, we're way
out of whack. When you ask people from backgrounds different from our own
why they don't participate more often many cite things like tone and
disrespect. All Matt and Aslak are trying to do is to grow a community that
welcomes people who currently feel less safe.
I've done the best to explain why diversity is important, if the
grammar is lacking please understand I'm stealing time from my kids to help
you see one aspect of why this matters.
If you need more thoughts perhaps we should invite Sal Freudenburg
(see: http://www.infoq.com/presentations/psychology-agile
<http://www.google.com/url?q=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.infoq.com%2Fpresentations%2Fpsychology-agile&sa=D&sntz=1&usg=AFQjCNFacsl6uYqhi5eEkn4yKR6j01g0nw>)
for more depth and science.
Matt and Aslak - I hope my explanation fits with your goals.
Cheers
Mark
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The Cucumber logo is the intellectual property of Cucumber Ltd, a limited
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UK Headquarters: Cucumber Ltd, Drumsyniebeg, Lochgoilhead, Cairndow,
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Cezary Baginski
2016-04-21 19:48:22 UTC
Permalink
Based on what I posted earlier, I've just been rejected as a candidate for
the Aruba project.

Personally I don't mind, but since everyone here is so serious about the
subject, I think it's an interesting case study.

If you don't think this is worth discussing, it's obviously already a
failure of the CoC.

Just saying.

I was rejected without an explanation.


So, what's next?

- If I've violated the CoC, I probably shouldn't be able to even post here,
right?

- But if I have violated the CoC, I should at least know on what basis.
(Was it because I used the word "crap"? Or because the clumsy humor I used?)

- "Rolling my eyes" has become an offense, because it can "hurt others".
Ok. It simply makes it very hard for me to communicate, because I have to
spend 10 minutes per sentence.

- Does mentioning "rolling my eyes" constitute as an offense? Is that
passive-aggressive behavior? Is it insulting?

- Since I haven't become a maintainer yet, am I "guilty in advance?".

- Have I actually hurt anyone's feelings here? If I have, how am I supposed
to know? Am I just supposed to now "exclude myself" forever and ponder what
exactly was interpreted by others and how?

- Is the policy based on consensus or veto? I.e. if one person finds me
"inadequate", is that enough to exclude me permanently?

- Is being irritated by enormous, unproductive (in coding terms) threads on
CoC's a bad thing?

- Is questioning the pragmatism of a CoC something that should exclude me
immediately?

- How do I contribute now without being able to communicate? What if my
commit violates the CoC? Do I have a chance to correct it, or am I "banned"
immediately.

- Is there room for "apology", or am I "too diverse" for a project with a
CoC like this? Am I permanently tainted?

- Can I voice my objections on a CoC-releated thread at least - without
being "vilified"?

- Is there a place where I can ASK if saying something would violated the
CoC? Or do I have to "follow it perfectly", no matter what my background
is, my language patterns, my life experiences or attitude?

- If I limit my doubts to a thread like this (and talk in a completely
boring and IMHO "unwelcoming" way elsewhere ...) does that still constitute
a CoC violation or exclusion from any community activity?

- Is being willing to be corrected and challenge the same as being an
"unwelcoming person"? (E.g. "too unwelcoming" to be a maintainer or
contributor?).

- Do I have a "right" to voice my "frustrations" like this? On a thread
like this - without the fear of having my HONEST opinions "used against
me"? Or am I violating the CoC even further?

- if I can learn to be more "welcoming", how will that happen if I'm
excluded by default (and in advance) without an explanation?


Most of those are rhetorical questions. But you get the idea.

Simply put, my opinions here were likely "not aligned" with "how a
maintainer should be" - without being given a chance to show how I do treat
users interested in solving their problems, and, contributors interested in
getting them fixed and merged.

So my honest opinions on the usefulness of a CoC were used to evaluate my
"suitability" as a maintainer.

No big deal for me. But neither was the CoC.

If someone was offended by my comments, all I can say is: I didn't mean it.

I come from a country where generations were murdered, tortured,
prosecuted, exiled, robbed, etc. Physical abuse of the worst kind. Heck,
even speaking in my native language was often prosecuted by occupants.

So maybe I have a lot to learn to "adapt" to the scale of "abuse" I'm
creating here.

That's why I question the CoC's use as an "educational tool" for people
like me, while excluding me doesn't solve that "education" problem either.


All I want to say at this point: I haven't hurt a single person (AFAIK),
and I'm already too frustrated to bother anything more than just writing
code. (Thank goodness I don't like commenting code much).

To me, "rules" like CoCs just help ultimately fanatics get into power,
while just irritating people who want to see progress happening and useful
tools being released. (And who aren't into the whole "fan club" thing at
all).

Yes, I exaggerated. Here and before. But that didn't stop from specific
actions being taken against me.

Something to think about ...


This was a lousy experience for me. My fault probably. Maybe I'm too dumb
to understand why. Maybe I just have to learn to express frustrations in a
"welcoming way". (Which I have no clue how to do, as it seems).

On behalf of contributors who think this is all nonsense and doesn't
actually encourage contributions ... I'm giving up before I accidentally
"offend" more people.

I'm not interested in a community I can't learn from, or where it just
costs too much emotion and life to "comply". Or even just contribute.


P.S. I'm not watching this, so if you are interested in my opinion further,
reach out to me.
Post by Matt Wynne
Hi all,
At a recent meetup of the core team in Copenhagen, we discussed the issue
of the lack of diversity in the contributions to the open-source project.
We have a great diverse range of people using Cucumber and attending our
conferences and meetups, but we’d like to encourage more people to feel
welcome to help with the open-source too.
We decided that a code of conduct would be a good first step. The CoC will
apply to this mailing list as well as other Cucumber venues, so please give
it a read and share your support / feedback.
https://github.com/cucumber/cucumber/blob/code-of-conduct/CODE_OF_CONDUCT.md
https://github.com/cucumber/cucumber/pull/22
cheers,
Matt
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The Cucumber logo is the intellectual property of Cucumber Ltd, a limited
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aslak hellesoy
2016-04-21 21:20:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Cezary Baginski
Based on what I posted earlier, I've just been rejected as a candidate for
the Aruba project.
Hi Cesary,

Are you saying you requested to be granted the commit bit, and someone
rejected that request without an explanation? If this was a conversation
that happened in a public forum, please provide a link to it so I can
understand what happened. If it happened in a private conversation, please
Post by Cezary Baginski
Personally I don't mind, but since everyone here is so serious about the
subject, I think it's an interesting case study.
There are 3000 people on this list, so "everyone" is very broad statement.
Post by Cezary Baginski
If you don't think this is worth discussing, it's obviously already a
failure of the CoC.
I'm discussing it with you now.
Post by Cezary Baginski
Just saying.
I was rejected without an explanation.
So, what's next?
- If I've violated the CoC, I probably shouldn't be able to even post
here, right?
As I mentioned above I don't know who rejected you, what exactly you were
requesting, why you were rejected or where it happened.

You said yourself you weren't offered an explanation, so I'd be curious to
know why you think it's related to your conduct. Usually people's
contributions are rejected because they don't align with the technical or
functional vision of the project maintainers, not because they have
misbehaved.

The rest of your post is speculation, which I am not going to comment on.
Looking forward to learning more about what happened.

Cheers,
Aslak
Post by Cezary Baginski
- But if I have violated the CoC, I should at least know on what basis.
(Was it because I used the word "crap"? Or because the clumsy humor I used?)
- "Rolling my eyes" has become an offense, because it can "hurt others".
Ok. It simply makes it very hard for me to communicate, because I have to
spend 10 minutes per sentence.
- Does mentioning "rolling my eyes" constitute as an offense? Is that
passive-aggressive behavior? Is it insulting?
- Since I haven't become a maintainer yet, am I "guilty in advance?".
- Have I actually hurt anyone's feelings here? If I have, how am I
supposed to know? Am I just supposed to now "exclude myself" forever and
ponder what exactly was interpreted by others and how?
- Is the policy based on consensus or veto? I.e. if one person finds me
"inadequate", is that enough to exclude me permanently?
- Is being irritated by enormous, unproductive (in coding terms) threads
on CoC's a bad thing?
- Is questioning the pragmatism of a CoC something that should exclude me
immediately?
- How do I contribute now without being able to communicate? What if my
commit violates the CoC? Do I have a chance to correct it, or am I "banned"
immediately.
- Is there room for "apology", or am I "too diverse" for a project with a
CoC like this? Am I permanently tainted?
- Can I voice my objections on a CoC-releated thread at least - without
being "vilified"?
- Is there a place where I can ASK if saying something would violated the
CoC? Or do I have to "follow it perfectly", no matter what my background
is, my language patterns, my life experiences or attitude?
- If I limit my doubts to a thread like this (and talk in a completely
boring and IMHO "unwelcoming" way elsewhere ...) does that still constitute
a CoC violation or exclusion from any community activity?
- Is being willing to be corrected and challenge the same as being an
"unwelcoming person"? (E.g. "too unwelcoming" to be a maintainer or
contributor?).
- Do I have a "right" to voice my "frustrations" like this? On a thread
like this - without the fear of having my HONEST opinions "used against
me"? Or am I violating the CoC even further?
- if I can learn to be more "welcoming", how will that happen if I'm
excluded by default (and in advance) without an explanation?
Most of those are rhetorical questions. But you get the idea.
Simply put, my opinions here were likely "not aligned" with "how a
maintainer should be" - without being given a chance to show how I do treat
users interested in solving their problems, and, contributors interested in
getting them fixed and merged.
So my honest opinions on the usefulness of a CoC were used to evaluate my
"suitability" as a maintainer.
No big deal for me. But neither was the CoC.
If someone was offended by my comments, all I can say is: I didn't mean it.
I come from a country where generations were murdered, tortured,
prosecuted, exiled, robbed, etc. Physical abuse of the worst kind. Heck,
even speaking in my native language was often prosecuted by occupants.
So maybe I have a lot to learn to "adapt" to the scale of "abuse" I'm
creating here.
That's why I question the CoC's use as an "educational tool" for people
like me, while excluding me doesn't solve that "education" problem either.
All I want to say at this point: I haven't hurt a single person (AFAIK),
and I'm already too frustrated to bother anything more than just writing
code. (Thank goodness I don't like commenting code much).
To me, "rules" like CoCs just help ultimately fanatics get into power,
while just irritating people who want to see progress happening and useful
tools being released. (And who aren't into the whole "fan club" thing at
all).
Yes, I exaggerated. Here and before. But that didn't stop from specific
actions being taken against me.
Something to think about ...
This was a lousy experience for me. My fault probably. Maybe I'm too dumb
to understand why. Maybe I just have to learn to express frustrations in a
"welcoming way". (Which I have no clue how to do, as it seems).
On behalf of contributors who think this is all nonsense and doesn't
actually encourage contributions ... I'm giving up before I accidentally
"offend" more people.
I'm not interested in a community I can't learn from, or where it just
costs too much emotion and life to "comply". Or even just contribute.
P.S. I'm not watching this, so if you are interested in my opinion
further, reach out to me.
Post by Matt Wynne
Hi all,
At a recent meetup of the core team in Copenhagen, we discussed the issue
of the lack of diversity in the contributions to the open-source project.
We have a great diverse range of people using Cucumber and attending our
conferences and meetups, but we’d like to encourage more people to feel
welcome to help with the open-source too.
We decided that a code of conduct would be a good first step. The CoC
will apply to this mailing list as well as other Cucumber venues, so please
give it a read and share your support / feedback.
https://github.com/cucumber/cucumber/blob/code-of-conduct/CODE_OF_CONDUCT.md
https://github.com/cucumber/cucumber/pull/22
cheers,
Matt
—
+44(0)7974430184
https://cucumber.io
https://twitter.com/mattwynne
The Cucumber logo is the intellectual property of Cucumber Ltd, a limited
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aslak hellesoy
2016-04-21 21:21:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by aslak hellesoy
Post by Cezary Baginski
Based on what I posted earlier, I've just been rejected as a candidate
for the Aruba project.
Hi Cesary,
Cezary - sorry!
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Cezary Baginski
2016-04-21 22:44:38 UTC
Permalink
It was in private (gitter). No big deal really. No one is at fault here in
my opinion.

I just presented this as a case study.


My overall thoughts are:

1. A CoC seems like a good thing.
2. People get too zealous about it.
3. People stop being pragmatic.
4. People extrapolate.
5. Unintended consequences.

Personally, I'm fine. I'm just frustrated that the psychological "dangers"
are not well understood.

People who wish well (e.g. to protect others from harm) sometimes just let
their judgement get clouded.

I'm not interested in begin "part of a community". I people need help and I
can help, I help.

I something is broken and I fix it, I do what I can to share my fix and
make it acceptable.

I'm not interested in "community stuff" and "politics". Unless it's an
obstacle in fixing things.

Being a maintainer is a huge responsibility - keeping track of so much
communications.

I agree with the "anti-harassment" goal of a CoC. By "kindness" and
"welcoming" is too ambiguous.

It's an added emotional burden to filter out all communication over
something vague. I don't want that burden. I just want to code.


Personally, I think a CoC is terrible, because it's like a political
debate. Everyone ends up frustrated and angry, nothing changes for the
better.

I don't believe a CoC is a good strategy for getting committers. I'm not
the "nicest" person in how I communicate.

My priority is making stuff work. If my productivity drops because I have
to walk on egg-shells, it's no longer fun for me.

And if it's not fun, I get more irritable and discouraged. And then every
discussion about something non-tech related just makes things worse.

A CoC doesn't make people more kind in practice. I just makes kind and
helpful people worry more about hurting others.

That's a huge burden when people already are focused on making sure
everything works perfectly on the technical side. (Contributing already is
hard - and requires more than just writing a patch).


I'm not frustrated with the community here - I'm just too sensitive to all
the drama and "CoC pushing" around everywhere. Probably because I care. Too
much.

Also, a CoC takes away the "internal reward" I have for striving to be
kind. Now, with a CoC like that, kindness is an "expectation". It's
"pressure". And no longer a "choice" or "courtesy" or "gift" from my side.

I also discriminate heavily. I listen and spend hours helping casual users.
(I treat their struggles as the fault of the software I write). I nudge
first time contributers through their first PRs. I'm tougher against pros.
And out of respect, I challenges maintainers.

I challenge guys. And I do make sure girls get a ton of support from me.

I discriminate, but not to hurt people. I treat different people
differently. I try to work out if the contributor is a seasoned pro, or a
novice trying to work out PRs or how to write specs.

I don't need a CoC for that.

A CoC makes people panic - the moment I say something crude, it's too easy
to mark me as a "potential abuser". "Just in case". To avoid drama.

(In fact I believe the whole CoC "mania" was due to GitHub trying to
recover it's reputation after the one employee leaving due to being
harassed - one case and everyone everywhere went crazy).

A maintainer is a huge responsibility (I'm repeating myself). Then moment
I'm ever accepted, my whole "mode" changes. I'm responsible for every PR,
every issue, every Wiki entry and every mail/gitter post. (I feel that way).

I understand that becoming a maintainer means following certain rules -
even if I don't agree with them. If I complain about them, it doesn't mean
I won't follow them.


I believe kindness is a gift, not an entitlement. Given I can fork a
project and keep fixes to myself, contributing is something more useful to
others than myself.

Not wanting to sound like a sour-puss, I honestly think it's too much
responsibility for me compared to the emotional energy I'd need to stay
useful and productive.


Maintaining a project is work. If I felt I could make enough progress, I'd
survive any hardships.

This just case just generally discouraged me from the open-source world.
Maybe I'm not "community-oriented" enough.

Just to make sure no one feels bad about this: I lost my excitement because
things just take too long. I don't mind work, I just don't like waiting on
others when I have time to move things forward myself.

Everyone is busy - I get that. It's just that if I'm not excited (and I get
excited about progress/coding rather than "hanging out in a community"),
then it's just a drain on me.


So again - no one is to blame here. The CoC topic made me lose joy and
excitement. I tried being humorous about it (my first post), but the
gravity of the subject just ruined it.


Again - no hard feelings. I just got discouraged. It happened. An ambiguous
non-technical subject just threw me off. I'm human, so it's not like I can
quickly snap back.

I also get it. Women want to feel safe. But I believe that safety can be
created by people, and not a CoC.

Unexpected kindness and understanding are what I enjoyed most about the
open source community.

(The first seems to have been replaced with a CoC, the latter with
"voting").

I might come back, but I need time.

Keep up the good work everyone!
Post by aslak hellesoy
Post by aslak hellesoy
Post by Cezary Baginski
Based on what I posted earlier, I've just been rejected as a candidate
for the Aruba project.
Hi Cesary,
Cezary - sorry!
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Tom Cloyd
2016-04-22 19:03:31 UTC
Permalink
Andrew,

I'll grant that much of the time there is little or no need for a COC. AND
that when one exists it is almost always ignored. However, in reality they
usually come about in response to a evident problem. In my own Google Plus
group, we had bullying and overt verbal assaults from two members.
Formulating a COC, while asking several times for group response and
feedback (to get buy-in and consensus) was a way of making explicit that in
our group, as in every group, there really ARE expectations about
appropriate behavior. Working to become aware of those expectations is a
valuable exercise in raising consciousness of who the group is, as a group,
and in finding and affirming shared values.

The evident (to leaders at least) problem here is lack of diversity.
Homogenous groups tend to behave in ways that can too easily exclude
outsiders. For this (and similar groups) this is NOT a desired outcome. To
address it specifically seems a rational response to me.

As for the appropriateness of this discussion here, when it is clearly NOT
about the focal topic to which the list is devoted: A little small group
sociology, OK? (I can provide references if you want them.) All groups that
actually work must accomplish two objectives: a) they must create and
foster the group as a set of individuals who are working toward a common
goal, and b) they must get that work accomplished. You want only to do b).
That's just not possible.

Most of a) usually gets done by a few individuals, and often "off-site",
but not always. At times, every group needs to come together and have a
"town hall meeting", in which the HOW of being a group is discussed. This
is true in marriage, in families, in clubs, in any group. So, I must
respectfully disagree. This discussion is happening exactly where it needs
to happen, because it concerns us all. That not everyone is participating
is beside the point. There are always more listeners than speakers. What
matters is all who are interested CAN participate. This is democracy in
action.

Such conversations don't last forever. This one is clearly winding down.I f
you don't want to participate, or listen in, then don't. But don't try to
shut down the conversation. The topic is important and it concerns us all.

Tom

On 04/22/2016 02:00 AM, Andrew Premdas wrote:

Tom,

It seems to me that an appropriate mailing list for the discussion and
disputes about COC's would be a mailing list dedicated to COC's, not this
mailing list. In that location this discussion would be on topic and
hopefully informative. In this location this discussion is distracting and
intimidating, and clearly is causing harm to the group. Whether there is
some benefit to counteract this is open to debate.

Mailing lists are designed to be narrowly focused on a particular topic.
Here, in the Cucumber mailing list, discussion has been used to clarify
positions and resolve conflicts about how to make the best use of Cucumber
for many years. This has been, and hopefully will continue to be the
ordinary social process of this little nook of the internet.

Generally bringing discussion about contentious off-topic issues into
mailing lists and forums is harmful. Unfortunately COC's by their nature,
seem to do this.

My preferred COC for this group is:

1. Be nice
2. Talk about Cucumber

I really don't think there is need for anything else.

That said, I do respect the good intentions behind the introduction of the
COC.

All best

ANdrew
Post by Mark Levison
Andrew,
That the idea of COCs provokes discussion and dispute is hardly
remarkable. To characterize it as "poison" is simply not accurate. People
will disagree. Discussion is how positions are clarified and conflicts are
resolved. This is just ordinary social process, and it's healthy.
Cezary,
All persisting social groups develop cultures, part of which is a body of
thought about what is and is not appropriate behavior. This fact as long
ago established by academic cultural anthropology and sociology. If
sufficient internal awareness of the culture evolves, formal statements of
what is and is not appropriate behavior may be made. They may even be
codified in some sort of legal framework. Add clear statements about
constitutes crossing an expectational boundary, and an enforcement
mechanism, and you have a legal codification. My point is that codification
may or may not come with sanctions.
A codification of what is usual is different from one about what is
expected. The latter is more of a values statement. In a subculture, such
as computer programming, where the ability and contributions of all sorts
of people, especially women, are a documented fact, but which is also known
currently to consist predominantly of white males (in the USA and Europe),
there would appear to be a cultural problem. To make an overt statement
about valuing diversity is one (and just one) tactic in pursuit of the goal
of increased diversity. That's why such a statement is a good idea.
Why overtly promote diversity? There is a clear reason for this, which you
appear not to understand. Systems (including but not limited to social
systems) which embody diversity of knowledge and skill have a known
propensity for responding adaptively to challenge far better than those
which do not. This is well known in biology, and in agriculture (ever heard
of the mono-cropping problem?), to take just two from among many. In
biology, we simpy say "diversity promotes survival", and so it is.
In groups and organizations, one promotes diversity because it CAUSES
increased quality in the group product. Good managers of all sorts know
this. Diversity is valued primarily because of what it causes.
So, when you state that diversity is "...a terrible goal in of itself for
people to pursue", you simply don't understand why diversity matters. You
say "I'm all for removing friction towards diversity". There may or may not
be resistance to diversity, but the problem is more fundamentally LACK of
diversity, for whatever reason. It's not about "enforcing" anything. It's
about clarifying group values and goals, specifically so that some brown or
black skinned female, or someone with an ethnic background quite divergent
from the European background most all of here have will anticipate being
welcomed here, and so will invite themselves into the group. We should
(logically) WANT this to happen because it makes the group stronger, and so
say that we value that which causes this increase in strength: diversity.
You and a few others seem quite anxious about all this. I am not sure why.
No one is proposing the formation of a secret police corps to enforce
anything. I perceive a fundamental ignorance: people of liberal persuasion
are simply NOT inclined to tolerate autocracy or extremism of any kind,
much less dogma about much of anything. In general, education liberalises,
humanizes, makes gentle. It's not about conformity or enforcement - those
concepts are just alien. I am deeply puzzled that there are people who do
not grasp this.
Many computer languages have formal specifications. Those are technical
values statements - a code of conduct for code itself. No problem there,
right? Over time, most such specifications seem to tend toward inclusion of
additional functionality, not to rigid limitations. My metaphor may be a
bit strained, but surely you see the point. Having a bit of formal
structure creates increases functionality, basically in all things. This
the way of things. Why would this group be any different?
I think you would profit from looking more deeply at your anxiety about
all this. I truly don't think it's justified.
Tom
I like your response very much, Tom.
I just have one distinction to suggest: "diversity" is a good indicator of
a healthy system. However, it's a terrible goal in of itself for people to
pursue. I'm all for removing friction towards diversity. But artificially
"enforcing" it will just breed abuse.
Also, "leadership" means: "by example". So it's less about "getting others
to comply", but promoting the behavior by DISPLAYING it's values by example.
With so much knowledge in psychology, I'm sure you're aware of how eagerly
people emulate those they look up to.
So the best way to promote diversity is: to show how being different
*doesn't* prevent yourself from being active.
E.g. I am different. And mentioned as "courageous". I have a reputation on
the line. If I'm frustrated and I have an opinion counter to everyone else
here (to the extent people want to admit), then I'm "leading" by showing
honesty.
Compliance is not sign of leadership. Neither is "enforcing".
If diversity is beneficial, it needs no "rules". Just leaders. A true
leader will attempt transformation to create consensus. An evil cult leader
will remove everyone who isn't a blind follower.
Sometimes the very diversity in one area is causing a lack of diversity in
another area.
E.g. diversity of culture means e.g. Asians aren't force to abandon their
culture and embrace the American culture. "Unfortunately" that means
statistically more Asians will excel at maths.
So cultural diversity limits the diversity in a given area of skill.
Therefore, it's a fallacy to assume diversity has any inherent benefit in
of itself. Without a specific context, it's just a platitude at best.
Post by Tom Cloyd
I very rarely participate here, in good part because my fundamental work
in life is treating those who've been seriously abused by other people (or
less often just by disasters, personal and otherwise, of different sorts).
I'm a psychotherapist who specializes in PTSD and dissociative identity
disorder. I code because I love doing it and because it solves certain
practical problems for me, but I actually have very little time for it.
I much appreciate Matt's statement about the commitment of "the senior
members of this group" and their commitment to "providing leadership"
relative to the issue of diversity. Those are well-chosen words. I am
convinced that not only is this the only ethically defensible position we
can take, but that it's also functionally the most intelligent. Any
well-educated systems-oriented biologist, social psychologist, or cultural
anthropologist (my other professional commitment) will tell you that
diverse groups are stronger, more adaptive, and more likely to be here 500
(or even 100) years from now. Why would NOT want to visibly and actively
promote diversity in ANY group they care about? It is the most rationally
justifiable position to take.
Socio-cultural diversity is not a fringe issue. How can you be alive and
breathing in the 21st century and not know that? And if you don't care
about those "other people", well, you are part of the problem we're trying
to eliminate. Not-caring has huge human costs over the long run. Every
study history, for Pete's sake? Intolerance and indifference kills people.
I run a large group on Google Plus, and we definitely have a COC
("Behavioral Guidelines") for this very reason. Every newcomer is expected
to read it, and I remind people of it periodically. We have members from
every corner of the earth, and disruptive behavior is essentially
nonexistent.
I'm pleased to see this leadership in the Cucumber community - out front
and visible. And a COC that makes a clear statement about welcoming
diversity, while only a piece of the solution, DOES make a clear statement
about values. That harms no one and is likely helpful.
Tom
It seems that this community is just as vulnerable as many others to the
poison that COC's seem to be producing all around the internet. Whilst
their intent is honourable, their effect seems to be mostly
counter-productive. I've read every post on this thread. The main emootion
I feel having done that is dispair. At the moment I just want to withdraw
from the community for a while. All the content of this thread whilst
eloquent, thoughtful, polite and considered has (IMO) no place on this
mailing list. Its a Cucumber mailing list where we should be talking about
Cucumber, BDD, how nested steps are evil (or even sh*t), how big tables
stink and why little tables are at least smelly. I shall say no more
All best
Andrew
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"How lovely to think that no one need wait a moment, we can start now,
start slowly
changing the world! How lovely that everyone, great and small, can make
their
contribution toward introducing justice straightaway... And you can
always, always
give something, even if it is only kindness!" ~ Anne Frank
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Tom Cloyd, MS MA LMHC (WA)
Psychotherapist (psychological trauma, dissociative disorders)
Spokane, Washington, U.S.A: (435) 272-3332
<< TomCloyd.com >> (website)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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"How lovely to think that no one need wait a moment, we can start now,
start slowly
changing the world! How lovely that everyone, great and small, can make
their
contribution toward introducing justice straightaway... And you can always,
always
give something, even if it is only kindness!" ~ Anne Frank

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Tom Cloyd, MS MA LMHC (WA)
Psychotherapist (psychological trauma, dissociative disorders)
Spokane, Washington, U.S.A: (435) 272-3332
<< ***@tomcloyd.com >> (email)
<< TomCloyd.com >> (website)
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Roberto Lo Giacco
2016-04-22 23:37:16 UTC
Permalink
Lads, I've kept reading this thread and somewhat felt responsible for this
ongoing, may be distracting, conversation.

I will avoid writing a long winded and detailed reasoning, for sake of
brevity I'll just say my opinion stand along with Andrew and Cezary, even
if they are not saying the same things.

In particular the concept that diversity is good, but striving for it is
meaningless, finds me quite aligned.

If that might be of any value.

Roberto
Post by Mark Levison
Andrew,
I'll grant that much of the time there is little or no need for a COC. AND
that when one exists it is almost always ignored. However, in reality they
usually come about in response to a evident problem. In my own Google Plus
group, we had bullying and overt verbal assaults from two members.
Formulating a COC, while asking several times for group response and
feedback (to get buy-in and consensus) was a way of making explicit that in
our group, as in every group, there really ARE expectations about
appropriate behavior. Working to become aware of those expectations is a
valuable exercise in raising consciousness of who the group is, as a group,
and in finding and affirming shared values.
The evident (to leaders at least) problem here is lack of diversity.
Homogenous groups tend to behave in ways that can too easily exclude
outsiders. For this (and similar groups) this is NOT a desired outcome. To
address it specifically seems a rational response to me.
As for the appropriateness of this discussion here, when it is clearly NOT
about the focal topic to which the list is devoted: A little small group
sociology, OK? (I can provide references if you want them.) All groups that
actually work must accomplish two objectives: a) they must create and
foster the group as a set of individuals who are working toward a common
goal, and b) they must get that work accomplished. You want only to do b).
That's just not possible.
Most of a) usually gets done by a few individuals, and often "off-site",
but not always. At times, every group needs to come together and have a
"town hall meeting", in which the HOW of being a group is discussed. This
is true in marriage, in families, in clubs, in any group. So, I must
respectfully disagree. This discussion is happening exactly where it needs
to happen, because it concerns us all. That not everyone is participating
is beside the point. There are always more listeners than speakers. What
matters is all who are interested CAN participate. This is democracy in
action.
Such conversations don't last forever. This one is clearly winding down.I
f you don't want to participate, or listen in, then don't. But don't try to
shut down the conversation. The topic is important and it concerns us all.
Tom
Tom,
It seems to me that an appropriate mailing list for the discussion and
disputes about COC's would be a mailing list dedicated to COC's, not this
mailing list. In that location this discussion would be on topic and
hopefully informative. In this location this discussion is distracting and
intimidating, and clearly is causing harm to the group. Whether there is
some benefit to counteract this is open to debate.
Mailing lists are designed to be narrowly focused on a particular topic.
Here, in the Cucumber mailing list, discussion has been used to clarify
positions and resolve conflicts about how to make the best use of Cucumber
for many years. This has been, and hopefully will continue to be the
ordinary social process of this little nook of the internet.
Generally bringing discussion about contentious off-topic issues into
mailing lists and forums is harmful. Unfortunately COC's by their nature,
seem to do this.
1. Be nice
2. Talk about Cucumber
I really don't think there is need for anything else.
That said, I do respect the good intentions behind the introduction of the
COC.
All best
ANdrew
Post by Mark Levison
Andrew,
That the idea of COCs provokes discussion and dispute is hardly
remarkable. To characterize it as "poison" is simply not accurate. People
will disagree. Discussion is how positions are clarified and conflicts are
resolved. This is just ordinary social process, and it's healthy.
Cezary,
All persisting social groups develop cultures, part of which is a body of
thought about what is and is not appropriate behavior. This fact as long
ago established by academic cultural anthropology and sociology. If
sufficient internal awareness of the culture evolves, formal statements of
what is and is not appropriate behavior may be made. They may even be
codified in some sort of legal framework. Add clear statements about
constitutes crossing an expectational boundary, and an enforcement
mechanism, and you have a legal codification. My point is that codification
may or may not come with sanctions.
A codification of what is usual is different from one about what is
expected. The latter is more of a values statement. In a subculture, such
as computer programming, where the ability and contributions of all sorts
of people, especially women, are a documented fact, but which is also known
currently to consist predominantly of white males (in the USA and Europe),
there would appear to be a cultural problem. To make an overt statement
about valuing diversity is one (and just one) tactic in pursuit of the goal
of increased diversity. That's why such a statement is a good idea.
Why overtly promote diversity? There is a clear reason for this, which
you appear not to understand. Systems (including but not limited to social
systems) which embody diversity of knowledge and skill have a known
propensity for responding adaptively to challenge far better than those
which do not. This is well known in biology, and in agriculture (ever heard
of the mono-cropping problem?), to take just two from among many. In
biology, we simpy say "diversity promotes survival", and so it is.
In groups and organizations, one promotes diversity because it CAUSES
increased quality in the group product. Good managers of all sorts know
this. Diversity is valued primarily because of what it causes.
So, when you state that diversity is "...a terrible goal in of itself for
people to pursue", you simply don't understand why diversity matters. You
say "I'm all for removing friction towards diversity". There may or may not
be resistance to diversity, but the problem is more fundamentally LACK of
diversity, for whatever reason. It's not about "enforcing" anything. It's
about clarifying group values and goals, specifically so that some brown or
black skinned female, or someone with an ethnic background quite divergent
from the European background most all of here have will anticipate being
welcomed here, and so will invite themselves into the group. We should
(logically) WANT this to happen because it makes the group stronger, and so
say that we value that which causes this increase in strength: diversity.
You and a few others seem quite anxious about all this. I am not sure
why. No one is proposing the formation of a secret police corps to enforce
anything. I perceive a fundamental ignorance: people of liberal persuasion
are simply NOT inclined to tolerate autocracy or extremism of any kind,
much less dogma about much of anything. In general, education liberalises,
humanizes, makes gentle. It's not about conformity or enforcement - those
concepts are just alien. I am deeply puzzled that there are people who do
not grasp this.
Many computer languages have formal specifications. Those are technical
values statements - a code of conduct for code itself. No problem there,
right? Over time, most such specifications seem to tend toward inclusion of
additional functionality, not to rigid limitations. My metaphor may be a
bit strained, but surely you see the point. Having a bit of formal
structure creates increases functionality, basically in all things. This
the way of things. Why would this group be any different?
I think you would profit from looking more deeply at your anxiety about
all this. I truly don't think it's justified.
Tom
I like your response very much, Tom.
I just have one distinction to suggest: "diversity" is a good indicator
of a healthy system. However, it's a terrible goal in of itself for people
to pursue. I'm all for removing friction towards diversity. But
artificially "enforcing" it will just breed abuse.
Also, "leadership" means: "by example". So it's less about "getting
others to comply", but promoting the behavior by DISPLAYING it's values by
example.
With so much knowledge in psychology, I'm sure you're aware of how
eagerly people emulate those they look up to.
So the best way to promote diversity is: to show how being different
*doesn't* prevent yourself from being active.
E.g. I am different. And mentioned as "courageous". I have a reputation
on the line. If I'm frustrated and I have an opinion counter to everyone
else here (to the extent people want to admit), then I'm "leading" by
showing honesty.
Compliance is not sign of leadership. Neither is "enforcing".
If diversity is beneficial, it needs no "rules". Just leaders. A true
leader will attempt transformation to create consensus. An evil cult leader
will remove everyone who isn't a blind follower.
Sometimes the very diversity in one area is causing a lack of diversity
in another area.
E.g. diversity of culture means e.g. Asians aren't force to abandon their
culture and embrace the American culture. "Unfortunately" that means
statistically more Asians will excel at maths.
So cultural diversity limits the diversity in a given area of skill.
Therefore, it's a fallacy to assume diversity has any inherent benefit in
of itself. Without a specific context, it's just a platitude at best.
Post by Tom Cloyd
I very rarely participate here, in good part because my fundamental work
in life is treating those who've been seriously abused by other people (or
less often just by disasters, personal and otherwise, of different sorts).
I'm a psychotherapist who specializes in PTSD and dissociative identity
disorder. I code because I love doing it and because it solves certain
practical problems for me, but I actually have very little time for it.
I much appreciate Matt's statement about the commitment of "the senior
members of this group" and their commitment to "providing leadership"
relative to the issue of diversity. Those are well-chosen words. I am
convinced that not only is this the only ethically defensible position we
can take, but that it's also functionally the most intelligent. Any
well-educated systems-oriented biologist, social psychologist, or cultural
anthropologist (my other professional commitment) will tell you that
diverse groups are stronger, more adaptive, and more likely to be here 500
(or even 100) years from now. Why would NOT want to visibly and actively
promote diversity in ANY group they care about? It is the most rationally
justifiable position to take.
Socio-cultural diversity is not a fringe issue. How can you be alive and
breathing in the 21st century and not know that? And if you don't care
about those "other people", well, you are part of the problem we're trying
to eliminate. Not-caring has huge human costs over the long run. Every
study history, for Pete's sake? Intolerance and indifference kills people.
I run a large group on Google Plus, and we definitely have a COC
("Behavioral Guidelines") for this very reason. Every newcomer is expected
to read it, and I remind people of it periodically. We have members from
every corner of the earth, and disruptive behavior is essentially
nonexistent.
I'm pleased to see this leadership in the Cucumber community - out front
and visible. And a COC that makes a clear statement about welcoming
diversity, while only a piece of the solution, DOES make a clear statement
about values. That harms no one and is likely helpful.
Tom
It seems that this community is just as vulnerable as many others to the
poison that COC's seem to be producing all around the internet. Whilst
their intent is honourable, their effect seems to be mostly
counter-productive. I've read every post on this thread. The main emootion
I feel having done that is dispair. At the moment I just want to withdraw
from the community for a while. All the content of this thread whilst
eloquent, thoughtful, polite and considered has (IMO) no place on this
mailing list. Its a Cucumber mailing list where we should be talking about
Cucumber, BDD, how nested steps are evil (or even sh*t), how big tables
stink and why little tables are at least smelly. I shall say no more
All best
Andrew
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"How lovely to think that no one need wait a moment, we can start now,
start slowly
changing the world! How lovely that everyone, great and small, can make
their
contribution toward introducing justice straightaway... And you can
always, always
give something, even if it is only kindness!" ~ Anne Frank
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Tom Cloyd, MS MA LMHC (WA)
Psychotherapist (psychological trauma, dissociative disorders)
Spokane, Washington, U.S.A: (435) 272-3332
<< TomCloyd.com >> (website)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
--
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blog.andrew.premdas.org
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"How lovely to think that no one need wait a moment, we can start now,
start slowly
changing the world! How lovely that everyone, great and small, can make
their
contribution toward introducing justice straightaway... And you can
always, always
give something, even if it is only kindness!" ~ Anne Frank
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Tom Cloyd, MS MA LMHC (WA)
Psychotherapist (psychological trauma, dissociative disorders)
Spokane, Washington, U.S.A: (435) 272-3332
<< TomCloyd.com >> (website)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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Tom Cloyd
2016-04-22 23:45:34 UTC
Permalink
So I'm chairman of the Mathematics Department at Yale. I want a faculty
whose expertise and teaching and research better reflect the range of topic
relevant to contemporary mathematics. Better for students, for the
reputation of the department, for MY reputation as one heck of great
Department Chair. Diversity is GOOD!

But, hell no, I'm not going to actually advertise my interest in this
objective anywhere, or go search for people who could join our faculty but
aren't considering it because they feel (wrongly) that they wouldn't be
accepted.

The Diversity Fairy will take care of my problem. I don't actually need to
ACT on my thinking. After all, thinking is just for thinking. Has no
relationship to what one DOES in life, right?

And my next new car? Just going to buy it and park it. Possessing is
everything. Using...? Pointless.

Sure. Makes sense...as long as you don't think about it.

t.
Post by Roberto Lo Giacco
Lads, I've kept reading this thread and somewhat felt responsible for this
ongoing, may be distracting, conversation.
I will avoid writing a long winded and detailed reasoning, for sake of
brevity I'll just say my opinion stand along with Andrew and Cezary, even
if they are not saying the same things.
In particular the concept that diversity is good, but striving for it is
meaningless, finds me quite aligned.
If that might be of any value.
Roberto
Post by Mark Levison
Andrew,
I'll grant that much of the time there is little or no need for a COC.
AND that when one exists it is almost always ignored. However, in reality
they usually come about in response to a evident problem. In my own Google
Plus group, we had bullying and overt verbal assaults from two members.
Formulating a COC, while asking several times for group response and
feedback (to get buy-in and consensus) was a way of making explicit that in
our group, as in every group, there really ARE expectations about
appropriate behavior. Working to become aware of those expectations is a
valuable exercise in raising consciousness of who the group is, as a group,
and in finding and affirming shared values.
The evident (to leaders at least) problem here is lack of diversity.
Homogenous groups tend to behave in ways that can too easily exclude
outsiders. For this (and similar groups) this is NOT a desired outcome. To
address it specifically seems a rational response to me.
As for the appropriateness of this discussion here, when it is clearly
NOT about the focal topic to which the list is devoted: A little small
group sociology, OK? (I can provide references if you want them.) All
groups that actually work must accomplish two objectives: a) they must
create and foster the group as a set of individuals who are working toward
a common goal, and b) they must get that work accomplished. You want only
to do b). That's just not possible.
Most of a) usually gets done by a few individuals, and often "off-site",
but not always. At times, every group needs to come together and have a
"town hall meeting", in which the HOW of being a group is discussed. This
is true in marriage, in families, in clubs, in any group. So, I must
respectfully disagree. This discussion is happening exactly where it needs
to happen, because it concerns us all. That not everyone is participating
is beside the point. There are always more listeners than speakers. What
matters is all who are interested CAN participate. This is democracy in
action.
Such conversations don't last forever. This one is clearly winding down.I
f you don't want to participate, or listen in, then don't. But don't try to
shut down the conversation. The topic is important and it concerns us all.
Tom
Tom,
It seems to me that an appropriate mailing list for the discussion and
disputes about COC's would be a mailing list dedicated to COC's, not this
mailing list. In that location this discussion would be on topic and
hopefully informative. In this location this discussion is distracting and
intimidating, and clearly is causing harm to the group. Whether there is
some benefit to counteract this is open to debate.
Mailing lists are designed to be narrowly focused on a particular topic.
Here, in the Cucumber mailing list, discussion has been used to clarify
positions and resolve conflicts about how to make the best use of Cucumber
for many years. This has been, and hopefully will continue to be the
ordinary social process of this little nook of the internet.
Generally bringing discussion about contentious off-topic issues into
mailing lists and forums is harmful. Unfortunately COC's by their nature,
seem to do this.
1. Be nice
2. Talk about Cucumber
I really don't think there is need for anything else.
That said, I do respect the good intentions behind the introduction of
the COC.
All best
ANdrew
Post by Mark Levison
Andrew,
That the idea of COCs provokes discussion and dispute is hardly
remarkable. To characterize it as "poison" is simply not accurate. People
will disagree. Discussion is how positions are clarified and conflicts are
resolved. This is just ordinary social process, and it's healthy.
Cezary,
I'm glad you find in my response something of merit. But please
consider: All persisting social groups develop cultures, part of which is a
body of thought about what is and is not appropriate behavior. This fact as
long ago established by academic cultural anthropology and sociology. If
sufficient internal awareness of the culture evolves, formal statements of
what is and is not appropriate behavior may be made. They may even be
codified in some sort of legal framework. Add clear statements about
constitutes crossing an expectational boundary, and an enforcement
mechanism, and you have a legal codification. My point is that codification
may or may not come with sanctions.
A codification of what is usual is different from one about what is
expected. The latter is more of a values statement. In a subculture, such
as computer programming, where the ability and contributions of all sorts
of people, especially women, are a documented fact, but which is also known
currently to consist predominantly of white males (in the USA and Europe),
there would appear to be a cultural problem. To make an overt statement
about valuing diversity is one (and just one) tactic in pursuit of the goal
of increased diversity. That's why such a statement is a good idea.
Why overtly promote diversity? There is a clear reason for this, which
you appear not to understand. Systems (including but not limited to social
systems) which embody diversity of knowledge and skill have a known
propensity for responding adaptively to challenge far better than those
which do not. This is well known in biology, and in agriculture (ever heard
of the mono-cropping problem?), to take just two from among many. In
biology, we simpy say "diversity promotes survival", and so it is.
In groups and organizations, one promotes diversity because it CAUSES
increased quality in the group product. Good managers of all sorts know
this. Diversity is valued primarily because of what it causes.
So, when you state that diversity is "...a terrible goal in of itself
for people to pursue", you simply don't understand why diversity matters.
You say "I'm all for removing friction towards diversity". There may or may
not be resistance to diversity, but the problem is more fundamentally LACK
of diversity, for whatever reason. It's not about "enforcing" anything.
It's about clarifying group values and goals, specifically so that some
brown or black skinned female, or someone with an ethnic background quite
divergent from the European background most all of here have will
anticipate being welcomed here, and so will invite themselves into the
group. We should (logically) WANT this to happen because it makes the group
stronger, and so say that we value that which causes this increase in
strength: diversity.
You and a few others seem quite anxious about all this. I am not sure
why. No one is proposing the formation of a secret police corps to enforce
anything. I perceive a fundamental ignorance: people of liberal persuasion
are simply NOT inclined to tolerate autocracy or extremism of any kind,
much less dogma about much of anything. In general, education liberalises,
humanizes, makes gentle. It's not about conformity or enforcement - those
concepts are just alien. I am deeply puzzled that there are people who do
not grasp this.
Many computer languages have formal specifications. Those are technical
values statements - a code of conduct for code itself. No problem there,
right? Over time, most such specifications seem to tend toward inclusion of
additional functionality, not to rigid limitations. My metaphor may be a
bit strained, but surely you see the point. Having a bit of formal
structure creates increases functionality, basically in all things. This
the way of things. Why would this group be any different?
I think you would profit from looking more deeply at your anxiety about
all this. I truly don't think it's justified.
Tom
I like your response very much, Tom.
I just have one distinction to suggest: "diversity" is a good indicator
of a healthy system. However, it's a terrible goal in of itself for people
to pursue. I'm all for removing friction towards diversity. But
artificially "enforcing" it will just breed abuse.
Also, "leadership" means: "by example". So it's less about "getting
others to comply", but promoting the behavior by DISPLAYING it's values by
example.
With so much knowledge in psychology, I'm sure you're aware of how
eagerly people emulate those they look up to.
So the best way to promote diversity is: to show how being different
*doesn't* prevent yourself from being active.
E.g. I am different. And mentioned as "courageous". I have a reputation
on the line. If I'm frustrated and I have an opinion counter to everyone
else here (to the extent people want to admit), then I'm "leading" by
showing honesty.
Compliance is not sign of leadership. Neither is "enforcing".
If diversity is beneficial, it needs no "rules". Just leaders. A true
leader will attempt transformation to create consensus. An evil cult leader
will remove everyone who isn't a blind follower.
Sometimes the very diversity in one area is causing a lack of diversity
in another area.
E.g. diversity of culture means e.g. Asians aren't force to abandon
their culture and embrace the American culture. "Unfortunately" that means
statistically more Asians will excel at maths.
So cultural diversity limits the diversity in a given area of skill.
Therefore, it's a fallacy to assume diversity has any inherent benefit
in of itself. Without a specific context, it's just a platitude at best.
Post by Tom Cloyd
I very rarely participate here, in good part because my fundamental
work in life is treating those who've been seriously abused by other people
(or less often just by disasters, personal and otherwise, of different
sorts). I'm a psychotherapist who specializes in PTSD and dissociative
identity disorder. I code because I love doing it and because it solves
certain practical problems for me, but I actually have very little time for
it.
I much appreciate Matt's statement about the commitment of "the senior
members of this group" and their commitment to "providing leadership"
relative to the issue of diversity. Those are well-chosen words. I am
convinced that not only is this the only ethically defensible position we
can take, but that it's also functionally the most intelligent. Any
well-educated systems-oriented biologist, social psychologist, or cultural
anthropologist (my other professional commitment) will tell you that
diverse groups are stronger, more adaptive, and more likely to be here 500
(or even 100) years from now. Why would NOT want to visibly and actively
promote diversity in ANY group they care about? It is the most rationally
justifiable position to take.
Socio-cultural diversity is not a fringe issue. How can you be alive
and breathing in the 21st century and not know that? And if you don't care
about those "other people", well, you are part of the problem we're trying
to eliminate. Not-caring has huge human costs over the long run. Every
study history, for Pete's sake? Intolerance and indifference kills people.
I run a large group on Google Plus, and we definitely have a COC
("Behavioral Guidelines") for this very reason. Every newcomer is expected
to read it, and I remind people of it periodically. We have members from
every corner of the earth, and disruptive behavior is essentially
nonexistent.
I'm pleased to see this leadership in the Cucumber community - out
front and visible. And a COC that makes a clear statement about welcoming
diversity, while only a piece of the solution, DOES make a clear statement
about values. That harms no one and is likely helpful.
Tom
It seems that this community is just as vulnerable as many others to
the poison that COC's seem to be producing all around the internet. Whilst
their intent is honourable, their effect seems to be mostly
counter-productive. I've read every post on this thread. The main emootion
I feel having done that is dispair. At the moment I just want to withdraw
from the community for a while. All the content of this thread whilst
eloquent, thoughtful, polite and considered has (IMO) no place on this
mailing list. Its a Cucumber mailing list where we should be talking about
Cucumber, BDD, how nested steps are evil (or even sh*t), how big tables
stink and why little tables are at least smelly. I shall say no more
All best
Andrew
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"How lovely to think that no one need wait a moment, we can start now,
start slowly
changing the world! How lovely that everyone, great and small, can make
their
contribution toward introducing justice straightaway... And you can
always, always
give something, even if it is only kindness!" ~ Anne Frank
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Tom Cloyd, MS MA LMHC (WA)
Psychotherapist (psychological trauma, dissociative disorders)
Spokane, Washington, U.S.A: (435) 272-3332
<< TomCloyd.com >> (website)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
--
Posting rules: http://cukes.info/posting-rules.html
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--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"How lovely to think that no one need wait a moment, we can start now,
start slowly
changing the world! How lovely that everyone, great and small, can make
their
contribution toward introducing justice straightaway... And you can
always, always
give something, even if it is only kindness!" ~ Anne Frank
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Tom Cloyd, MS MA LMHC (WA)
Psychotherapist (psychological trauma, dissociative disorders)
Spokane, Washington, U.S.A: (435) 272-3332
<< TomCloyd.com >> (website)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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"How lovely to think that no one need wait a moment, we can start now,
start slowly
changing the world! How lovely that everyone, great and small, can make
their
contribution toward introducing justice straightaway... And you can always,
always
give something, even if it is only kindness!" ~ Anne Frank

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Tom Cloyd, MS MA LMHC (WA)
Psychotherapist (psychological trauma, dissociative disorders)
Spokane, Washington, U.S.A: (435) 272-3332
<< ***@tomcloyd.com >> (email)
<< TomCloyd.com >> (website)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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Roberto Lo Giacco
2016-04-23 00:00:54 UTC
Permalink
​Sorry Tom, but there is no need to get emotional to this and there is no
need to attack me: I was just expressing my opinion in the most possible
humble way I could find.

Just to shortly clarify my point of view: if I'm chairman of the
Mathematics Department at Yale I want the most brilliant mathematicians and
researchers, best possible tools and support team, well defined processes
as well.

I would personally don't care about diversity by itself, I would not
advertise the Mathematics Department of Yale as "the one encompassing the
most diverse population all over the Country", I don't believe that will
bring more students, not counting for those looking to hook up exotic girls.
Sure, if my department was going to be populated only by wealthy ignorant
people​ I would be worried. I would be worried also if I've got only one
skin-tone in my whole department, or one religion only, but if that still
represents the best around, well, than..... should I stop accepting
brilliant students just because their skin matches the one of all other
students?

So that's my point, which I believe aligns to Andrew: diversity is GOOD
(nobody I believe said the opposite) and must not be rejected, but it would
not be my goal. I would still ACT to achieve diversity, but not for the
sake of it.

And by the way, going down to the possession route can only lead the
conversation into the rabbit hole...

I am thinking about all this, and my thinking, while not in accordance to
yours, still does make sense to others so, please, respect my point of view
and myself as an individual.

If I offended you in any way, I apologize, but I would like you to explain
to me how I did it, so to avoid repeating the mistake.

Thank you,
Roberto
Post by Tom Cloyd
So I'm chairman of the Mathematics Department at Yale. I want a faculty
whose expertise and teaching and research better reflect the range of topic
relevant to contemporary mathematics. Better for students, for the
reputation of the department, for MY reputation as one heck of great
Department Chair. Diversity is GOOD!
But, hell no, I'm not going to actually advertise my interest in this
objective anywhere, or go search for people who could join our faculty but
aren't considering it because they feel (wrongly) that they wouldn't be
accepted.
The Diversity Fairy will take care of my problem. I don't actually need to
ACT on my thinking. After all, thinking is just for thinking. Has no
relationship to what one DOES in life, right?
And my next new car? Just going to buy it and park it. Possessing is
everything. Using...? Pointless.
Sure. Makes sense...as long as you don't think about it.
t.
Post by Roberto Lo Giacco
Lads, I've kept reading this thread and somewhat felt responsible for
this ongoing, may be distracting, conversation.
I will avoid writing a long winded and detailed reasoning, for sake of
brevity I'll just say my opinion stand along with Andrew and Cezary, even
if they are not saying the same things.
In particular the concept that diversity is good, but striving for it is
meaningless, finds me quite aligned.
If that might be of any value.
Roberto
Post by Mark Levison
Andrew,
I'll grant that much of the time there is little or no need for a COC.
AND that when one exists it is almost always ignored. However, in reality
they usually come about in response to a evident problem. In my own Google
Plus group, we had bullying and overt verbal assaults from two members.
Formulating a COC, while asking several times for group response and
feedback (to get buy-in and consensus) was a way of making explicit that in
our group, as in every group, there really ARE expectations about
appropriate behavior. Working to become aware of those expectations is a
valuable exercise in raising consciousness of who the group is, as a group,
and in finding and affirming shared values.
The evident (to leaders at least) problem here is lack of diversity.
Homogenous groups tend to behave in ways that can too easily exclude
outsiders. For this (and similar groups) this is NOT a desired outcome. To
address it specifically seems a rational response to me.
As for the appropriateness of this discussion here, when it is clearly
NOT about the focal topic to which the list is devoted: A little small
group sociology, OK? (I can provide references if you want them.) All
groups that actually work must accomplish two objectives: a) they must
create and foster the group as a set of individuals who are working toward
a common goal, and b) they must get that work accomplished. You want only
to do b). That's just not possible.
Most of a) usually gets done by a few individuals, and often "off-site",
but not always. At times, every group needs to come together and have a
"town hall meeting", in which the HOW of being a group is discussed. This
is true in marriage, in families, in clubs, in any group. So, I must
respectfully disagree. This discussion is happening exactly where it needs
to happen, because it concerns us all. That not everyone is participating
is beside the point. There are always more listeners than speakers. What
matters is all who are interested CAN participate. This is democracy in
action.
Such conversations don't last forever. This one is clearly winding
down.I f you don't want to participate, or listen in, then don't. But don't
try to shut down the conversation. The topic is important and it concerns
us all.
Tom
Tom,
It seems to me that an appropriate mailing list for the discussion and
disputes about COC's would be a mailing list dedicated to COC's, not this
mailing list. In that location this discussion would be on topic and
hopefully informative. In this location this discussion is distracting and
intimidating, and clearly is causing harm to the group. Whether there is
some benefit to counteract this is open to debate.
Mailing lists are designed to be narrowly focused on a particular topic.
Here, in the Cucumber mailing list, discussion has been used to clarify
positions and resolve conflicts about how to make the best use of Cucumber
for many years. This has been, and hopefully will continue to be the
ordinary social process of this little nook of the internet.
Generally bringing discussion about contentious off-topic issues into
mailing lists and forums is harmful. Unfortunately COC's by their nature,
seem to do this.
1. Be nice
2. Talk about Cucumber
I really don't think there is need for anything else.
That said, I do respect the good intentions behind the introduction of
the COC.
All best
ANdrew
Post by Mark Levison
Andrew,
That the idea of COCs provokes discussion and dispute is hardly
remarkable. To characterize it as "poison" is simply not accurate. People
will disagree. Discussion is how positions are clarified and conflicts are
resolved. This is just ordinary social process, and it's healthy.
Cezary,
I'm glad you find in my response something of merit. But please
consider: All persisting social groups develop cultures, part of which is a
body of thought about what is and is not appropriate behavior. This fact as
long ago established by academic cultural anthropology and sociology. If
sufficient internal awareness of the culture evolves, formal statements of
what is and is not appropriate behavior may be made. They may even be
codified in some sort of legal framework. Add clear statements about
constitutes crossing an expectational boundary, and an enforcement
mechanism, and you have a legal codification. My point is that codification
may or may not come with sanctions.
A codification of what is usual is different from one about what is
expected. The latter is more of a values statement. In a subculture, such
as computer programming, where the ability and contributions of all sorts
of people, especially women, are a documented fact, but which is also known
currently to consist predominantly of white males (in the USA and Europe),
there would appear to be a cultural problem. To make an overt statement
about valuing diversity is one (and just one) tactic in pursuit of the goal
of increased diversity. That's why such a statement is a good idea.
Why overtly promote diversity? There is a clear reason for this, which
you appear not to understand. Systems (including but not limited to social
systems) which embody diversity of knowledge and skill have a known
propensity for responding adaptively to challenge far better than those
which do not. This is well known in biology, and in agriculture (ever heard
of the mono-cropping problem?), to take just two from among many. In
biology, we simpy say "diversity promotes survival", and so it is.
In groups and organizations, one promotes diversity because it CAUSES
increased quality in the group product. Good managers of all sorts know
this. Diversity is valued primarily because of what it causes.
So, when you state that diversity is "...a terrible goal in of itself
for people to pursue", you simply don't understand why diversity matters.
You say "I'm all for removing friction towards diversity". There may or may
not be resistance to diversity, but the problem is more fundamentally LACK
of diversity, for whatever reason. It's not about "enforcing" anything.
It's about clarifying group values and goals, specifically so that some
brown or black skinned female, or someone with an ethnic background quite
divergent from the European background most all of here have will
anticipate being welcomed here, and so will invite themselves into the
group. We should (logically) WANT this to happen because it makes the group
stronger, and so say that we value that which causes this increase in
strength: diversity.
You and a few others seem quite anxious about all this. I am not sure
why. No one is proposing the formation of a secret police corps to enforce
anything. I perceive a fundamental ignorance: people of liberal persuasion
are simply NOT inclined to tolerate autocracy or extremism of any kind,
much less dogma about much of anything. In general, education liberalises,
humanizes, makes gentle. It's not about conformity or enforcement - those
concepts are just alien. I am deeply puzzled that there are people who do
not grasp this.
Many computer languages have formal specifications. Those are technical
values statements - a code of conduct for code itself. No problem there,
right? Over time, most such specifications seem to tend toward inclusion of
additional functionality, not to rigid limitations. My metaphor may be a
bit strained, but surely you see the point. Having a bit of formal
structure creates increases functionality, basically in all things. This
the way of things. Why would this group be any different?
I think you would profit from looking more deeply at your anxiety about
all this. I truly don't think it's justified.
Tom
I like your response very much, Tom.
I just have one distinction to suggest: "diversity" is a good indicator
of a healthy system. However, it's a terrible goal in of itself for people
to pursue. I'm all for removing friction towards diversity. But
artificially "enforcing" it will just breed abuse.
Also, "leadership" means: "by example". So it's less about "getting
others to comply", but promoting the behavior by DISPLAYING it's values by
example.
With so much knowledge in psychology, I'm sure you're aware of how
eagerly people emulate those they look up to.
So the best way to promote diversity is: to show how being different
*doesn't* prevent yourself from being active.
E.g. I am different. And mentioned as "courageous". I have a reputation
on the line. If I'm frustrated and I have an opinion counter to everyone
else here (to the extent people want to admit), then I'm "leading" by
showing honesty.
Compliance is not sign of leadership. Neither is "enforcing".
If diversity is beneficial, it needs no "rules". Just leaders. A true
leader will attempt transformation to create consensus. An evil cult leader
will remove everyone who isn't a blind follower.
Sometimes the very diversity in one area is causing a lack of diversity
in another area.
E.g. diversity of culture means e.g. Asians aren't force to abandon
their culture and embrace the American culture. "Unfortunately" that means
statistically more Asians will excel at maths.
So cultural diversity limits the diversity in a given area of skill.
Therefore, it's a fallacy to assume diversity has any inherent benefit
in of itself. Without a specific context, it's just a platitude at best.
Post by Tom Cloyd
I very rarely participate here, in good part because my fundamental
work in life is treating those who've been seriously abused by other people
(or less often just by disasters, personal and otherwise, of different
sorts). I'm a psychotherapist who specializes in PTSD and dissociative
identity disorder. I code because I love doing it and because it solves
certain practical problems for me, but I actually have very little time for
it.
I much appreciate Matt's statement about the commitment of "the senior
members of this group" and their commitment to "providing leadership"
relative to the issue of diversity. Those are well-chosen words. I am
convinced that not only is this the only ethically defensible position we
can take, but that it's also functionally the most intelligent. Any
well-educated systems-oriented biologist, social psychologist, or cultural
anthropologist (my other professional commitment) will tell you that
diverse groups are stronger, more adaptive, and more likely to be here 500
(or even 100) years from now. Why would NOT want to visibly and actively
promote diversity in ANY group they care about? It is the most rationally
justifiable position to take.
Socio-cultural diversity is not a fringe issue. How can you be alive
and breathing in the 21st century and not know that? And if you don't care
about those "other people", well, you are part of the problem we're trying
to eliminate. Not-caring has huge human costs over the long run. Every
study history, for Pete's sake? Intolerance and indifference kills people.
I run a large group on Google Plus, and we definitely have a COC
("Behavioral Guidelines") for this very reason. Every newcomer is expected
to read it, and I remind people of it periodically. We have members from
every corner of the earth, and disruptive behavior is essentially
nonexistent.
I'm pleased to see this leadership in the Cucumber community - out
front and visible. And a COC that makes a clear statement about welcoming
diversity, while only a piece of the solution, DOES make a clear statement
about values. That harms no one and is likely helpful.
Tom
It seems that this community is just as vulnerable as many others to
the poison that COC's seem to be producing all around the internet. Whilst
their intent is honourable, their effect seems to be mostly
counter-productive. I've read every post on this thread. The main emootion
I feel having done that is dispair. At the moment I just want to withdraw
from the community for a while. All the content of this thread whilst
eloquent, thoughtful, polite and considered has (IMO) no place on this
mailing list. Its a Cucumber mailing list where we should be talking about
Cucumber, BDD, how nested steps are evil (or even sh*t), how big tables
stink and why little tables are at least smelly. I shall say no more
All best
Andrew
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T Rosenberg
2016-04-23 11:32:57 UTC
Permalink
On Saturday, April 23, 2016 at 1:01:32 AM UTC+1, Roberto Lo Giacco wrote:

​Sorry Tom, but there is no need to get emotional to this
Many people are emotional about having a CoC. It is a valid response.
Please do not attempt to shut down other members of the group if they
express emotions during a discussion.
and there is no need to attack me: I was just expressing my opinion in the
most possible humble way I could find.
The CoC states, "When critiquing other people’s work or ideas, avoid ad
hominem or personal attacks." As a moderator of the Cucumber community, I
would like to make sure that your concern about being attacked is not
ignored. If you feel comfortable doing so, could you please email
***@cucumber.io so we can discuss this in a private space, in confidence.

It occurs to me that people in the community may not know who I am or why
I've been asked to be a moderator, so I'll take this opportunity to
introduce myself. I've been the Executive Assistant for Matt Wynne Limited
and Cucumber Limited since 2012 and am particularly interested in the
community and diversity aspects of an open source project. Matt asked me to
be one of the moderators as he felt my opinions and perspective would be
beneficial. Feel free to ask any questions you'd like, here or in a new
thread or at the email address above.

Just to shortly clarify my point of view: if I'm chairman of the
Mathematics Department at Yale I want the most brilliant mathematicians and
researchers, best possible tools and support team, well defined processes
as well.
I would personally don't care about diversity by itself, I would not
advertise the Mathematics Department of Yale as "the one encompassing the
most diverse population all over the Country", I don't believe that will
bring more students, not counting for those looking to hook up exotic girls.
Sure, if my department was going to be populated only by wealthy ignorant
people​ I would be worried. I would be worried also if I've got only one
skin-tone in my whole department, or one religion only, but if that still
represents the best around, well, than..... should I stop accepting
brilliant students just because their skin matches the one of all other
students?
(mod hat off)

Let's look at your concept of 'the most brilliant'. How is 'the most
brilliant' being defined? Let's say you have one position in the
Mathematics Department at Yale, a department which is overwhelmingly white
and male, and you have narrowed the shortlist to two candidates. You
interview them both.

Candidate one, Thomas, is male and white. He grew up in New York City,
attended Philips Andover, and went to Princeton for his undergraduate work
(where he graduated cum laude) and PhD; there are no indications that he
won any major scholarships or grants, so you assume his family has paid his
entire way. He's spent his summers as an intern for a top mathematician at
Harvard and has been co-author on several papers as a result. He is
supremely confident while interviewing, never at a loss for words, and
perfectly dressed. You've met him several times at local mathematics
gatherings and have always been impressed with him. His PhD thesis is
solid, as are his post-doctoral research plans. His references repeatedly
use the word 'brilliant'.

Candidate two, Keisha, is female and black. She grew up in small town in
Missouri, attended a magnet school for science and mathematics, and went to
the University of Missouri for her undergraduate work (where she graduated
summa cum laude) and PhD; her CV indicates that she was funded through a
combination of work-study, Dean's List grants, and diversity scholarships.
She's spent her summers working as a barista to fill in the financial gaps
her scholarships didn't cover, and volunteering with Black Girls Code. She
is co-author on a few papers with her thesis adviser. She interviews well
but shows signs of nervousness. You have never met her before. Her PhD
thesis is solid, as are her post-doctoral research plans. Her references
repeatedly use the word 'brilliant'.

Which candidate would you consider 'the most brilliant'? What criteria
would you use to determine this? What steps would you take to ensure you
aren't hiring Thomas out of unconscious bias? Are you certain that the most
brilliant mathematician, as opposed to 'highly intelligent', is actually
the best person to bring into your team as a whole? What if Thomas's work
is brilliant but safe and Keisha's is less brilliant but far more
innovative? What if Keisha herself, AND her work, are referred to as
'brilliant', but Thomas (though personally described as brilliant) is
consistently producing fairly pedestrian research?

Saying 'we only hire/accept the most brilliant people' is a complicated
statement which fails to address many factors - unconscious bias being just
one of them. Ideally, it will be the starting point for a discussion about
what 'best' really means in a system where personal background, motivation,
socioeconomic status, skill, education, experience, and diversity are all
factors that contribute to a hiring decision.
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Hassan Schroeder
2016-04-23 14:51:25 UTC
Permalink
Saying 'we only hire/accept the most brilliant people' is a complicated statement which fails to address many factors - unconscious bias being just one of them. Ideally, it will be the starting point for a discussion about what 'best' really means in a system where personal background, motivation, socioeconomic status, skill, education, experience, and diversity are all factors that contribute to a hiring decision.
Awesome - well expressed, and thank you.
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Roberto Lo Giacco
2016-04-23 16:40:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roberto Lo Giacco
​Sorry Tom, but there is no need to get emotional to this
Many people are emotional about having a CoC. It is a valid response.
Please do not attempt to shut down other members of the group if they
express emotions during a discussion.
Sorry, but I don't understand in which way I'm attempting to shut down Tom.
I'm suggesting to maintain the conversation on an academic level.
Post by Roberto Lo Giacco
and there is no need to attack me: I was just expressing my opinion in the
most possible humble way I could find.
The CoC states, "When critiquing other people’s work or ideas, avoid ad
hominem or personal attacks." As a moderator of the Cucumber community, I
would like to make sure that your concern about being attacked is not
ignored. If you feel comfortable doing so, could you please email
can discuss this in a private space, in confidence.
I will
Post by Roberto Lo Giacco
It occurs to me that people in the community may not know who I am or why
I've been asked to be a moderator, so I'll take this opportunity to
introduce myself. I've been the Executive Assistant for Matt Wynne Limited
and Cucumber Limited since 2012 and am particularly interested in the
community and diversity aspects of an open source project. Matt asked me to
be one of the moderators as he felt my opinions and perspective would be
beneficial. Feel free to ask any questions you'd like, here or in a new
thread or at the email address above.
Just to shortly clarify my point of view: if I'm chairman of the
Mathematics Department at Yale I want the most brilliant mathematicians and
researchers, best possible tools and support team, well defined processes
as well.
I would personally don't care about diversity by itself, I would not
advertise the Mathematics Department of Yale as "the one encompassing the
most diverse population all over the Country", I don't believe that will
bring more students, not counting for those looking to hook up exotic girls.
Sure, if my department was going to be populated only by wealthy ignorant
people​ I would be worried. I would be worried also if I've got only one
skin-tone in my whole department, or one religion only, but if that still
represents the best around, well, than..... should I stop accepting
brilliant students just because their skin matches the one of all other
students?
(mod hat off)
Let's look at your concept of 'the most brilliant'. How is 'the most
brilliant' being defined? Let's say you have one position in the
Mathematics Department at Yale, a department which is overwhelmingly white
and male, and you have narrowed the shortlist to two candidates. You
interview them both.
Candidate one, Thomas, is male and white. He grew up in New York City,
attended Philips Andover, and went to Princeton for his undergraduate work
(where he graduated cum laude) and PhD; there are no indications that he
won any major scholarships or grants, so you assume his family has paid his
entire way. He's spent his summers as an intern for a top mathematician at
Harvard and has been co-author on several papers as a result. He is
supremely confident while interviewing, never at a loss for words, and
perfectly dressed. You've met him several times at local mathematics
gatherings and have always been impressed with him. His PhD thesis is
solid, as are his post-doctoral research plans. His references repeatedly
use the word 'brilliant'.
Candidate two, Keisha, is female and black. She grew up in small town in
Missouri, attended a magnet school for science and mathematics, and went to
the University of Missouri for her undergraduate work (where she graduated
summa cum laude) and PhD; her CV indicates that she was funded through a
combination of work-study, Dean's List grants, and diversity scholarships.
She's spent her summers working as a barista to fill in the financial gaps
her scholarships didn't cover, and volunteering with Black Girls Code. She
is co-author on a few papers with her thesis adviser. She interviews well
but shows signs of nervousness. You have never met her before. Her PhD
thesis is solid, as are her post-doctoral research plans. Her references
repeatedly use the word 'brilliant'.
All of the above are valid elements to determine "the most brilliant", with
the exclusion of gender, skin color and economical background.
To make it simple, I will not reject Keisha because of her black skin, but
I will also not hire her just for the same reason: in both cases it would
be racial discrimination.

This is what I mean saying "diversity is good, but not for the sake of it"
Post by Roberto Lo Giacco
Which candidate would you consider 'the most brilliant'? What criteria
would you use to determine this? What steps would you take to ensure you
aren't hiring Thomas out of unconscious bias?
Unconscious bias is part of human nature: I wouldn't deny it, personally.
But I'm also not in that role.
Post by Roberto Lo Giacco
Are you certain that the most brilliant mathematician, as opposed to
'highly intelligent', is actually the best person to bring into your team
as a whole? What if Thomas's work is brilliant but safe and Keisha's is
less brilliant but far more innovative? What if Keisha herself, AND her
work, are referred to as 'brilliant', but Thomas (though personally
described as brilliant) is consistently producing fairly pedestrian
research?
I believe the details here are not relevant, apologies.
Post by Roberto Lo Giacco
Saying 'we only hire/accept the most brilliant people' is a complicated
statement which fails to address many factors - unconscious bias being just
one of them.
I never said "the only", anyway, what I meant to say is I would go for the
one I feel better fits my idea of brilliant candidate. Sure, it's my idea,
it can be wrong and I might commit a mistake, but it would be my role to
take those decisions.
Post by Roberto Lo Giacco
Ideally, it will be the starting point for a discussion about what 'best'
really means in a system where personal background, motivation,
socioeconomic status, skill, education, experience, and diversity are all
factors that contribute to a hiring decision.
I agree it's not a simple matter, I was over-simplifying the example on
purpose, hoping to avoid to open additional side paths.

Regards,
Roberto
Post by Roberto Lo Giacco
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T Rosenberg
2016-04-24 11:12:04 UTC
Permalink
Hassan - thanks for letting me know! :)
Post by Roberto Lo Giacco
​Sorry Tom, but there is no need to get emotional to this
Post by T Rosenberg
Many people are emotional about having a CoC. It is a valid response.
Please do not attempt to shut down other members of the group if they
express emotions during a discussion.
Sorry, but I don't understand in which way I'm attempting to shut down
Tom. I'm suggesting to maintain the conversation on an academic level.
Everyone is welcome to make suggestions. Phrasing them as "I suggest" or "I
feel" makes it clear that this is an expression of personal opinion - for
instance, "I'm suggesting to maintain the conversation on an academic
level" is perfectly valid. However, a statement phrased in this manner -
"there is no need to get emotional" - is phrased not as a suggestion, but
as a dismissal of the other person's response.

All of the above are valid elements to determine "the most brilliant", with
Post by Roberto Lo Giacco
the exclusion of gender, skin color and economical background.
None of those three elements determine whether someone is born brilliant,
as far as I'm aware (though people growing up in extremely impoverished
environments can be cognitively affected by malnutrition).

However, gender- and race-based discrimination has been well documented.
Interpreting "the most brilliant" is subjective, and the members of a
hiring committee will be affected by *all* the criteria I originally
listed, and more that I didn't. Simply saying "we only hire the best/most
brilliant" doesn't address that issue.
Post by Roberto Lo Giacco
To make it simple, I will not reject Keisha because of her black skin, but
I will also not hire her just for the same reason: in both cases it would
be racial discrimination.
No, the two things aren't the same.

Rejecting her because of her ethnicity, in spite of her qualifications and
ability to do the job as advertised, is racial discrimination.

Hiring her because of her ethnicity, assuming she's qualified to do the job
as advertised, acknowledges that decades of discrimination have had a
negative impact not only on individuals, but on the field as a whole.
Brilliant, qualified people have been repeatedly discriminated against for
biases and reasons that are unrelated to whether they could do the job.
Hiring one black woman is obviously not going to make up for all the times
less-qualified white men were hired over more-qualified black women, of
course.

(Is it your - or anyone's - personal responsibility to care about the
larger picture? If not, why not?)
Post by Roberto Lo Giacco
This is what I mean saying "diversity is good, but not for the sake of it"
For the sake of ensuring that qualified, intelligent people aren't shut out
of the industry because of their gender, skin colour, sex/gender
identification, or other such factors? For the sake of acknowledging that
unconscious biases of all kinds have, in many cases, affected and grown the
non-diverse community that currently exists?

Are you certain that the most brilliant mathematician, as opposed to
Post by Roberto Lo Giacco
Post by T Rosenberg
'highly intelligent', is actually the best person to bring into your team
as a whole? What if Thomas's work is brilliant but safe and Keisha's is
less brilliant but far more innovative? What if Keisha herself, AND her
work, are referred to as 'brilliant', but Thomas (though personally
described as brilliant) is consistently producing fairly pedestrian
research?
I believe the details here are not relevant, apologies.
You originally said you wanted the most brilliant people. I'm offering
examples of how the term "brilliant" can be interpreted in multiple ways,
based on the personal views of the person making that decision.

For instance, I'd think Keisha was more brilliant because she's
accomplished so much in spite of needing to spend so much time at a
low-income job, and in spite of attending a university with fewer resources
and fewer world-class mentors who could help her. Other people might not.
The different opinions are natural, but they need to be acknowledged.

I never said "the only", anyway, what I meant to say is I would go for the
Post by Roberto Lo Giacco
Post by T Rosenberg
one I feel better fits my idea of brilliant candidate. Sure, it's my idea,
it can be wrong and I might commit a mistake, but it would be my role to
take those decisions.
A person whose role it is to make hiring decisions, who has an "idea of a
brilliant candidate", has a responsibility to acknowledge and pay attention
to the reasons why their ideas about brilliant candidates so often result
in teams that are overwhelmingly white and male. This means ensuring that
recruitment practices, interviews, hiring decisions, and payscales are
examined critically, to explore biases (unconscious and otherwise) and to
make diversity something that's an active part of the company, not just
something that's done "for the sake of it".

Here's an excellent round-up of a Buffer chat which addresses a lot of the
issues that have been brought up in this thread:
https://blog.bufferapp.com/diversity-inclusivity-in-tech-a-bufferchat-recap
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Roberto Lo Giacco
2016-04-26 15:28:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by T Rosenberg
Hassan - thanks for letting me know! :)
Post by Roberto Lo Giacco
​Sorry Tom, but there is no need to get emotional to this
Post by T Rosenberg
Many people are emotional about having a CoC. It is a valid response.
Please do not attempt to shut down other members of the group if they
express emotions during a discussion.
Sorry, but I don't understand in which way I'm attempting to shut down
Tom. I'm suggesting to maintain the conversation on an academic level.
Everyone is welcome to make suggestions. Phrasing them as "I suggest" or
"I feel" makes it clear that this is an expression of personal opinion -
for instance, "I'm suggesting to maintain the conversation on an academic
level" is perfectly valid. However, a statement phrased in this manner -
"there is no need to get emotional" - is phrased not as a suggestion, but
as a dismissal of the other person's response.
​I will not debate on this, but let me clarify everything I say it's my
personal opinion and I'm far from being the holder of any truth​. To me
this is a given, as long as respect for personal opinions and everybody
time.
Post by T Rosenberg
All of the above are valid elements to determine "the most brilliant",
Post by Roberto Lo Giacco
with the exclusion of gender, skin color and economical background.
None of those three elements determine whether someone is born brilliant,
as far as I'm aware (though people growing up in extremely impoverished
environments can be cognitively affected by malnutrition).
​That's why I would exclude those three... ​
Post by T Rosenberg
However, gender- and race-based discrimination has been well documented.
Interpreting "the most brilliant" is subjective, and the members of a
hiring committee will be affected by *all* the criteria I originally
listed, and more that I didn't. Simply saying "we only hire the best/most
brilliant" doesn't address that issue.
Post by Roberto Lo Giacco
To make it simple, I will not reject Keisha because of her black skin,
but I will also not hire her just for the same reason: in both cases it
would be racial discrimination.
No, the two things aren't the same.
​This sounds like a dismissal...​
Post by T Rosenberg
Rejecting her because of her ethnicity, in spite of her qualifications and
ability to do the job as advertised, is racial discrimination.
Hiring her because of her ethnicity, assuming she's qualified to do the
job as advertised, acknowledges that decades of discrimination have had a
negative impact not only on individuals, but on the field as a whole.
Brilliant, qualified people have been repeatedly discriminated against for
biases and reasons that are unrelated to whether they could do the job.
Hiring one black woman is obviously not going to make up for all the times
less-qualified white men were hired over more-qualified black women, of
course.
​But my main concern, as Mathematics Department chairman, is not to resolve
the Country/College discrimination, but to assemble the most productive
team (yes, I know productive is another very broad term and I suggest to
avoid to delve into it's definition)
Post by T Rosenberg
(Is it your - or anyone's - personal responsibility to care about the
larger picture? If not, why not?)
I believe it's not my main concern, which doesn't mean I shouldn't care,
but I don't believe my decision should be driven by that.
Post by T Rosenberg
Post by Roberto Lo Giacco
This is what I mean saying "diversity is good, but not for the sake of it"
For the sake of ensuring that qualified, intelligent people aren't shut
out of the industry because of their gender, skin colour, sex/gender
identification, or other such factors? For the sake of acknowledging that
unconscious biases of all kinds have, in many cases, affected and grown the
non-diverse community that currently exists?
​I'm sorry, but as I said I'm not looking to eliminate unconscious biases,
I believe those are part of human nature. I believethat is what
distinguishes an intelligent creature from a computer, as much as an animal
has fear of fire. Without having to involve AI, I believe biases of all
sorts are part of us.​
Post by T Rosenberg
Are you certain that the most brilliant mathematician, as opposed to
Post by Roberto Lo Giacco
Post by T Rosenberg
'highly intelligent', is actually the best person to bring into your team
as a whole? What if Thomas's work is brilliant but safe and Keisha's is
less brilliant but far more innovative? What if Keisha herself, AND her
work, are referred to as 'brilliant', but Thomas (though personally
described as brilliant) is consistently producing fairly pedestrian
research?
I believe the details here are not relevant, apologies.
You originally said you wanted the most brilliant people. I'm offering
examples of how the term "brilliant" can be interpreted in multiple ways,
based on the personal views of the person making that decision.
​That's correct, I didn't mean to delve into the details of what brilliant
can mean in this context as I knew it could be a broad term. I actually
used the broadest term to leave it open and embrace diversity of
interpretation. What is brilliant for me might be completely the opposite
for you and I accept this. Trying to make me share with you a definition of
brilliant is, in my humble opinion, trying to cancel diversity in favor of
a common interpretation, which is not beneficial to the conversation (once
again in my humble opinion).​
Post by T Rosenberg
For instance, I'd think Keisha was more brilliant because she's
accomplished so much in spite of needing to spend so much time at a
low-income job, and in spite of attending a university with fewer resources
and fewer world-class mentors who could help her. Other people might not.
The different opinions are natural, but they need to be acknowledged.
​We are aligned on the fact different people might have different
perception.​
Post by T Rosenberg
I never said "the only", anyway, what I meant to say is I would go for the
Post by Roberto Lo Giacco
Post by T Rosenberg
one I feel better fits my idea of brilliant candidate. Sure, it's my idea,
it can be wrong and I might commit a mistake, but it would be my role to
take those decisions.
A person whose role it is to make hiring decisions, who has an "idea of a
brilliant candidate", has a responsibility to acknowledge and pay attention
to the reasons why their ideas about brilliant candidates so often result
in teams that are overwhelmingly white and male. This means ensuring that
recruitment practices, interviews, hiring decisions, and payscales are
examined critically, to explore biases (unconscious and otherwise) and to
make diversity something that's an active part of the company, not just
something that's done "for the sake of it".
​We share the same point here too. If the two candidates are both
"brilliant" (whatever it might mean) , should I choose the most diverse?
Well, I probably would. But they must be "equally brilliant" to me.
Post by T Rosenberg
Here's an excellent round-up of a Buffer chat which addresses a lot of the
https://blog.bufferapp.com/diversity-inclusivity-in-tech-a-bufferchat-recap
The Cucumber logo is the intellectual property of Cucumber Ltd, a limited
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T Rosenberg
2016-05-03 05:35:59 UTC
Permalink
Hey - sounds like we're agreeing on many things and I'm happy to continue
this offline, but I thought I should clarify this one:

However, gender- and race-based discrimination has been well documented.
Post by Roberto Lo Giacco
Post by T Rosenberg
Post by Roberto Lo Giacco
Post by T Rosenberg
Interpreting "the most brilliant" is subjective, and the members of a
hiring committee will be affected by *all* the criteria I originally
listed, and more that I didn't. Simply saying "we only hire the best/most
brilliant" doesn't address that issue.
To make it simple, I will not reject Keisha because of her black skin,
but I will also not hire her just for the same reason: in both cases it
would be racial discrimination.
No, the two things aren't the same.
​This sounds like a dismissal...​
It's great that you're trying to work with this new concept!

A dismissal would be along the lines of "that's a stupid comment!" or "why
is that worth discussing?"

In this case, however, I'm correcting an error.

To give another example, if I said "Java and JavaScript are the same
language!" and you said, "That's a stupid thing to say," that would be a
dismissive comment. In contrast, "No, the two things aren't the same,"
followed by a rational explanation of why this is the case, would be
correcting my error.
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Andrew Premdas
2016-04-23 14:46:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark Levison
Andrew,
I'll grant that much of the time there is little or no need for a COC. AND
that when one exists it is almost always ignored. However, in reality they
usually come about in response to a evident problem. In my own Google Plus
group, we had bullying and overt verbal assaults from two members.
Formulating a COC, while asking several times for group response and
feedback (to get buy-in and consensus) was a way of making explicit that in
our group, as in every group, there really ARE expectations about
appropriate behavior. Working to become aware of those expectations is a
valuable exercise in raising consciousness of who the group is, as a group,
and in finding and affirming shared values.
The evident (to leaders at least) problem here is lack of diversity.
Homogenous groups tend to behave in ways that can too easily exclude
outsiders. For this (and similar groups) this is NOT a desired outcome. To
address it specifically seems a rational response to me.
As for the appropriateness of this discussion here, when it is clearly NOT
about the focal topic to which the list is devoted: A little small group
sociology, OK? (I can provide references if you want them.) All groups that
actually work must accomplish two objectives: a) they must create and
foster the group as a set of individuals who are working toward a common
goal, and b) they must get that work accomplished. You want only to do b).
That's just not possible.
Most of a) usually gets done by a few individuals, and often "off-site",
but not always. At times, every group needs to come together and have a
"town hall meeting", in which the HOW of being a group is discussed. This
is true in marriage, in families, in clubs, in any group. So, I must
respectfully disagree. This discussion is happening exactly where it needs
to happen, because it concerns us all. That not everyone is participating
is beside the point. There are always more listeners than speakers. What
matters is all who are interested CAN participate. This is democracy in
action.
Such conversations don't last forever. This one is clearly winding down.I
f you don't want to participate, or listen in, then don't. But don't try to
shut down the conversation. The topic is important and it concerns us all.
Tom,

As a person who has moderated this group for nearly 8 years, read the vast
majority of posts, answered hundreds of posts etc. I do take offence when
you say that 'I am not interested in fostering this group'. I also find it
somewhat offensive that questioning the appropriatness of the location of a
conversation is turned into 'shutting down the conversation. Perhaps this
is just another case of 'text being a poor medium for discussion', But it
sure feels personal.
Post by Mark Levison
Tom,
It seems to me that an appropriate mailing list for the discussion and
disputes about COC's would be a mailing list dedicated to COC's, not this
mailing list. In that location this discussion would be on topic and
hopefully informative. In this location this discussion is distracting and
intimidating, and clearly is causing harm to the group. Whether there is
some benefit to counteract this is open to debate.
Mailing lists are designed to be narrowly focused on a particular topic.
Here, in the Cucumber mailing list, discussion has been used to clarify
positions and resolve conflicts about how to make the best use of Cucumber
for many years. This has been, and hopefully will continue to be the
ordinary social process of this little nook of the internet.
Generally bringing discussion about contentious off-topic issues into
mailing lists and forums is harmful. Unfortunately COC's by their nature,
seem to do this.
1. Be nice
2. Talk about Cucumber
I really don't think there is need for anything else.
That said, I do respect the good intentions behind the introduction of the
COC.
All best
ANdrew
Post by Mark Levison
Andrew,
That the idea of COCs provokes discussion and dispute is hardly
remarkable. To characterize it as "poison" is simply not accurate. People
will disagree. Discussion is how positions are clarified and conflicts are
resolved. This is just ordinary social process, and it's healthy.
Cezary,
All persisting social groups develop cultures, part of which is a body of
thought about what is and is not appropriate behavior. This fact as long
ago established by academic cultural anthropology and sociology. If
sufficient internal awareness of the culture evolves, formal statements of
what is and is not appropriate behavior may be made. They may even be
codified in some sort of legal framework. Add clear statements about
constitutes crossing an expectational boundary, and an enforcement
mechanism, and you have a legal codification. My point is that codification
may or may not come with sanctions.
A codification of what is usual is different from one about what is
expected. The latter is more of a values statement. In a subculture, such
as computer programming, where the ability and contributions of all sorts
of people, especially women, are a documented fact, but which is also known
currently to consist predominantly of white males (in the USA and Europe),
there would appear to be a cultural problem. To make an overt statement
about valuing diversity is one (and just one) tactic in pursuit of the goal
of increased diversity. That's why such a statement is a good idea.
Why overtly promote diversity? There is a clear reason for this, which
you appear not to understand. Systems (including but not limited to social
systems) which embody diversity of knowledge and skill have a known
propensity for responding adaptively to challenge far better than those
which do not. This is well known in biology, and in agriculture (ever heard
of the mono-cropping problem?), to take just two from among many. In
biology, we simpy say "diversity promotes survival", and so it is.
In groups and organizations, one promotes diversity because it CAUSES
increased quality in the group product. Good managers of all sorts know
this. Diversity is valued primarily because of what it causes.
So, when you state that diversity is "...a terrible goal in of itself for
people to pursue", you simply don't understand why diversity matters. You
say "I'm all for removing friction towards diversity". There may or may not
be resistance to diversity, but the problem is more fundamentally LACK of
diversity, for whatever reason. It's not about "enforcing" anything. It's
about clarifying group values and goals, specifically so that some brown or
black skinned female, or someone with an ethnic background quite divergent
from the European background most all of here have will anticipate being
welcomed here, and so will invite themselves into the group. We should
(logically) WANT this to happen because it makes the group stronger, and so
say that we value that which causes this increase in strength: diversity.
You and a few others seem quite anxious about all this. I am not sure
why. No one is proposing the formation of a secret police corps to enforce
anything. I perceive a fundamental ignorance: people of liberal persuasion
are simply NOT inclined to tolerate autocracy or extremism of any kind,
much less dogma about much of anything. In general, education liberalises,
humanizes, makes gentle. It's not about conformity or enforcement - those
concepts are just alien. I am deeply puzzled that there are people who do
not grasp this.
Many computer languages have formal specifications. Those are technical
values statements - a code of conduct for code itself. No problem there,
right? Over time, most such specifications seem to tend toward inclusion of
additional functionality, not to rigid limitations. My metaphor may be a
bit strained, but surely you see the point. Having a bit of formal
structure creates increases functionality, basically in all things. This
the way of things. Why would this group be any different?
I think you would profit from looking more deeply at your anxiety about
all this. I truly don't think it's justified.
Tom
I like your response very much, Tom.
I just have one distinction to suggest: "diversity" is a good indicator
of a healthy system. However, it's a terrible goal in of itself for people
to pursue. I'm all for removing friction towards diversity. But
artificially "enforcing" it will just breed abuse.
Also, "leadership" means: "by example". So it's less about "getting
others to comply", but promoting the behavior by DISPLAYING it's values by
example.
With so much knowledge in psychology, I'm sure you're aware of how
eagerly people emulate those they look up to.
So the best way to promote diversity is: to show how being different
*doesn't* prevent yourself from being active.
E.g. I am different. And mentioned as "courageous". I have a reputation
on the line. If I'm frustrated and I have an opinion counter to everyone
else here (to the extent people want to admit), then I'm "leading" by
showing honesty.
Compliance is not sign of leadership. Neither is "enforcing".
If diversity is beneficial, it needs no "rules". Just leaders. A true
leader will attempt transformation to create consensus. An evil cult leader
will remove everyone who isn't a blind follower.
Sometimes the very diversity in one area is causing a lack of diversity
in another area.
E.g. diversity of culture means e.g. Asians aren't force to abandon their
culture and embrace the American culture. "Unfortunately" that means
statistically more Asians will excel at maths.
So cultural diversity limits the diversity in a given area of skill.
Therefore, it's a fallacy to assume diversity has any inherent benefit in
of itself. Without a specific context, it's just a platitude at best.
Post by Tom Cloyd
I very rarely participate here, in good part because my fundamental work
in life is treating those who've been seriously abused by other people (or
less often just by disasters, personal and otherwise, of different sorts).
I'm a psychotherapist who specializes in PTSD and dissociative identity
disorder. I code because I love doing it and because it solves certain
practical problems for me, but I actually have very little time for it.
I much appreciate Matt's statement about the commitment of "the senior
members of this group" and their commitment to "providing leadership"
relative to the issue of diversity. Those are well-chosen words. I am
convinced that not only is this the only ethically defensible position we
can take, but that it's also functionally the most intelligent. Any
well-educated systems-oriented biologist, social psychologist, or cultural
anthropologist (my other professional commitment) will tell you that
diverse groups are stronger, more adaptive, and more likely to be here 500
(or even 100) years from now. Why would NOT want to visibly and actively
promote diversity in ANY group they care about? It is the most rationally
justifiable position to take.
Socio-cultural diversity is not a fringe issue. How can you be alive and
breathing in the 21st century and not know that? And if you don't care
about those "other people", well, you are part of the problem we're trying
to eliminate. Not-caring has huge human costs over the long run. Every
study history, for Pete's sake? Intolerance and indifference kills people.
I run a large group on Google Plus, and we definitely have a COC
("Behavioral Guidelines") for this very reason. Every newcomer is expected
to read it, and I remind people of it periodically. We have members from
every corner of the earth, and disruptive behavior is essentially
nonexistent.
I'm pleased to see this leadership in the Cucumber community - out front
and visible. And a COC that makes a clear statement about welcoming
diversity, while only a piece of the solution, DOES make a clear statement
about values. That harms no one and is likely helpful.
Tom
It seems that this community is just as vulnerable as many others to the
poison that COC's seem to be producing all around the internet. Whilst
their intent is honourable, their effect seems to be mostly
counter-productive. I've read every post on this thread. The main emootion
I feel having done that is dispair. At the moment I just want to withdraw
from the community for a while. All the content of this thread whilst
eloquent, thoughtful, polite and considered has (IMO) no place on this
mailing list. Its a Cucumber mailing list where we should be talking about
Cucumber, BDD, how nested steps are evil (or even sh*t), how big tables
stink and why little tables are at least smelly. I shall say no more
All best
Andrew
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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changing the world! How lovely that everyone, great and small, can make
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contribution toward introducing justice straightaway... And you can
always, always
give something, even if it is only kindness!" ~ Anne Frank
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Psychotherapist (psychological trauma, dissociative disorders)
Spokane, Washington, U.S.A: (435) 272-3332
<< TomCloyd.com >> (website)
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<< TomCloyd.com >> (website)
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Cezary Baginski
2016-04-23 15:52:40 UTC
Permalink
An idea tailored to this community: *If you want to define the "right
behavior", express the CoC in Gherkin syntax (Given, When, Then). *

Cucumber is for expressing behavior in a clear way, right? Why should that
NOT apply for a CoC?

It would be fun, too, right? And it would be on topic as well (for a
change).
Post by Matt Wynne
Hi all,
At a recent meetup of the core team in Copenhagen, we discussed the issue
of the lack of diversity in the contributions to the open-source project.
We have a great diverse range of people using Cucumber and attending our
conferences and meetups, but we’d like to encourage more people to feel
welcome to help with the open-source too.
We decided that a code of conduct would be a good first step. The CoC will
apply to this mailing list as well as other Cucumber venues, so please give
it a read and share your support / feedback.
https://github.com/cucumber/cucumber/blob/code-of-conduct/CODE_OF_CONDUCT.md
https://github.com/cucumber/cucumber/pull/22
cheers,
Matt
—
+44(0)7974430184
https://cucumber.io
https://twitter.com/mattwynne
The Cucumber logo is the intellectual property of Cucumber Ltd, a limited
company registered in Scotland, number 456793.
UK Headquarters: Cucumber Ltd, Drumsyniebeg, Lochgoilhead, Cairndow,
Argyll, PA24 8AN UK.
CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: The information in this e-mail is confidential and
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Cezary Baginski
2016-04-23 16:38:54 UTC
Permalink
After reading the replies here, I'm really encouraged and hopeful again.

Thank you!

*TL;DR - here's a "table of contents" to respect your time and still
provide value:*

1. The name "Code of Conduct" is way too broad IMHO. It flies in the face
of good coding practices (which is what this community cares a lot about!)
2. A tip on how to avoid long unproductive discussions (whether caused by a
CoC or a lack thereof - example from Rust community).
3. How is a CoC different from a license like MIT, GPL, etc.? (Why not
follow an existing/similar practice everyone is familiar with already?)
4. The act of "adding a CoC" vs it's actual contents.
5. Scientific explanation of why such a document fails to do it's job.
(Hint: we're human).
6. Concrete examples of diversity being "bad". (For the sake of balance and
reason).
7. CoC discussions are basically just "Democrats vs Republicans", so I'm
out.
8. Summary - I'm not defending my opinion. Just sharing it in case it's
insightful. Call it "an act of diversity".
9. Have a nice weekend everyone!



Some insights I got after trying to understand both sides:

1. Instead of a politically correct term "CoC", I'd rather call it an *"anti-harassment
policy"*. Because "increasing scope" isn't always a good idea, even in
coding.

So the criteria stops being "was that kind/welcoming enough?" and becomes:
"is this really harassment that needs a 3rd party's action?". I'd fully
support any anti-harassment initiative - without a CoC. "Forcing" people to
act kind despite e.g. having a bad day (or going through a bad experience)
- that seems inhuman to me. It's coersion/force.

2. Don't expect a CoC to reduce unproductive discussions. It's not what
it's for. It does the opposite (case in point - almost every thread about
it).

There was a huge thread on the Rust project (sorry because I can't find it
again) where a commit changing "he" to "they" was rejected as "too trivial"
(others saw it as sexist to reject it).

Even just limiting that thread was impossible (because people get
emotional).

My conclusion: both sides were right.

Yes, it's good to be gender neutral. And yes, the commit was too trivial.

What should've happened was: the person wanting to change those two words
should've audited the whole code and created a reasonable case and
explanation - to solve the problem project-wide. Just like you'd build a
case for any other commit/change. (Except obvious things like
typos/grammar).

If something is important for you, build the case first. Otherwise, it's
just flame-bait. Trivial commits like that are bad, because they involve,
interrupt and distract other people. And people can't switch attention like
computers, so a "trivial commit" like that costs at least 15 minutes of
precious attention from anyone involved.

3. I don't see a reason to distribute a CoC along with all the gems. "MIT"
is a license. "APLv2" is a license. "GPLv2" is a license. There's no need
to install it, especially if a CoC (or agreeing to it) isn't required for
using the software.

So simply "adding a CoC" is pointless in of itself. Encouraging people to
be nice isn't scientifically proven to require adding a CoC to a
repository. So someone hell-bent on adding a CoC (without even the content
agreed upon yet) is definitely not acting 100% reasonably and with
practicality in mind.

4. All because "diversity is good", doesn't AUTOMATICALLY mean there's ANY
correlation between adding a CoC file and diversity actually increasing.

And "adding a file" doesn't scientifically mean there AREN'T any negative
side-effects. I don't mean side effects of diversity itself, but side
effects of adding and discussing a CoC. And those bad side effects may have
absolutely nothing to do with the actual content of the CoC.

5. People don't behave according to reason. (Or even policy and regulation
for that matter).

That's been scientifically proven like nothing else.

It's also why we have fields such as "usability". Many beautiful and well
thought-out and extensively discussed initiatives have turned out horrible
when faced with reality. (And especially psychology).

In software we write tests and executable specs. Because as coders, we've
long learned we can't trust our own judgement on what's
"right/wrong/correct".

Mistakes are just part of being human. And a single document in a repo
won't magically rewire our brains or transform our DNA.

Force just triggers resistance. Yes, using encouragement instead of policy
is trickier. (It often takes hard-core "people skills" to pull off). But
isn't is a much better goal?

And behavior is habitual. Heck, if a single document could immediately
transform people's habits, procrastination wouldn't exist.


6. If you want examples of diversity being "bad" - ask any quality-control
expert.

Diversity is what they're struggling to root out day in and day out.

Or, you can ask distro maintainers what they think about diversity.
(Especially regarding to standards). It's like with everything else: the
cost has to outweigh the benefits, or otherwise "diversity is inherently
good" is just an unvalidated platitude.

Or, ask ask any software architect if diversity helps get projects done
faster or not. Every single decision point in code just multiples the
number of test cases you need to write for coverage. What happened to the
"single responsibility" principle? How is adding responsibilities (which is
what a CoC does) considered indisputably beneficial?

7. The moment Open Source becomes effectively a debate between Democrats
and Republicans, I'm out.

It's not what I signed up for.

Even users hate when project "politics" (no matter how "benevolent" or
"pure in intent") is shoved in their face. (Or on their hard drive and
through their internet connection that they pay for).

And this whole "diversity matters" seems just like a Liberal agenda. So if
I'm more "Republican", I feel excluded. Which is the opposite of
"encouraging diversity".


8. Summary:

I'm not defending my position - just presenting it for open-minded people.

If I don't understand something "obvious" here, that's already a flaw of
the CoC or the process in creating, communicating and enforcing it.

(If that's the case, my opinion should be addressed, not rejected - for the
sake of diversity at least).

Please don't try to change my opinion by rejecting it and showing me the
door. If there's a specific flaw in my reasoning, point it out with
specific, scientifically proven (and universally true/correct) data.


Have a nice weekend everyone!
Post by Matt Wynne
Hi all,
At a recent meetup of the core team in Copenhagen, we discussed the issue
of the lack of diversity in the contributions to the open-source project.
We have a great diverse range of people using Cucumber and attending our
conferences and meetups, but we’d like to encourage more people to feel
welcome to help with the open-source too.
We decided that a code of conduct would be a good first step. The CoC will
apply to this mailing list as well as other Cucumber venues, so please give
it a read and share your support / feedback.
https://github.com/cucumber/cucumber/blob/code-of-conduct/CODE_OF_CONDUCT.md
https://github.com/cucumber/cucumber/pull/22
cheers,
Matt
—
+44(0)7974430184
https://cucumber.io
https://twitter.com/mattwynne
The Cucumber logo is the intellectual property of Cucumber Ltd, a limited
company registered in Scotland, number 456793.
UK Headquarters: Cucumber Ltd, Drumsyniebeg, Lochgoilhead, Cairndow,
Argyll, PA24 8AN UK.
CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: The information in this e-mail is confidential and
privileged; it is intended for use solely by the individual or entity named
as the recipient hereof. Disclosure, copying, distribution, or use of the
contents of this e-mail by persons other than the intended recipient is
strictly prohibited and may violate applicable laws. If you have received
this e-mail in error, please delete the original message and notify us by
email immediately. Thank you. Cucumber Ltd.
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