Discussion:
[Cucumber] Elevator pitch?
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Thomas Sundberg
2017-04-29 06:49:19 UTC
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Hi!

What is your elevator pitch for BDD and Cucumber?

/Thomas

Elevator pitch: A 10 seconds sales pitch that you can deliver during
an elevator ride that describes an idea in such a way that an
executive can understand it.
--
Thomas Sundberg
M. Sc. in Computer Science

Mobile: +46 70 767 33 15
Blog: http://www.thinkcode.se/blog
Twitter: @thomassundberg

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George Dinwiddie
2017-04-29 08:40:30 UTC
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Begin with the end in mind. It's hard to get the desired outcome if not
everyone has the same outcome in mind. BDD is a means of agreeing on
that outcome in sufficient detail to create working software. Cucumber
allows you to turn that agreement into regression tests.

- George
Post by Thomas Sundberg
Hi!
What is your elevator pitch for BDD and Cucumber?
/Thomas
Elevator pitch: A 10 seconds sales pitch that you can deliver during
an elevator ride that describes an idea in such a way that an
executive can understand it.
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------
* George Dinwiddie * http://blog.gdinwiddie.com
Software Development http://www.idiacomputing.com
Consultant and Coach http://www.agilemaryland.org
----------------------------------------------------------------------
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Thomas Sundberg
2017-05-08 16:06:38 UTC
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Post by George Dinwiddie
Begin with the end in mind. It's hard to get the desired outcome if not
everyone has the same outcome in mind. BDD is a means of agreeing on that
outcome in sufficient detail to create working software. Cucumber allows you
to turn that agreement into regression tests.
Thanks George!

I came with an alternative after some fiddling.

"Behaviour-Driven Development, BDD, is a way to collaboratively
specify software that says what it does and does what it says.
The specifications are readable and executable.
When they are successfully executed, the software works as wanted."

Having a few options is good so I will keep both.

/Thomas
Post by George Dinwiddie
- George
Post by Thomas Sundberg
Hi!
What is your elevator pitch for BDD and Cucumber?
/Thomas
Elevator pitch: A 10 seconds sales pitch that you can deliver during
an elevator ride that describes an idea in such a way that an
executive can understand it.
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------
* George Dinwiddie * http://blog.gdinwiddie.com
Software Development http://www.idiacomputing.com
Consultant and Coach http://www.agilemaryland.org
----------------------------------------------------------------------
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Andrew Premdas
2017-05-09 09:16:24 UTC
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"Behaviour-Driven Development, BDD, is a way to collaboratively
specify software that says what it does and does what it says.
The specifications are readable and executable.
When they are successfully executed, the software works as wanted

I'd replace 'specify' with 'build', and perhaps 'The specifications' with
'We create specifications that are ...'

Finally although I quite like the last line, it is IMO quite misleading.
The successful execution of specifications guarantee nothing much at all
without review. Its the quality of the review process in tandem with the
specifications that give you a better chance of getting the software you
want. Getting that across in an elevator pitch is an entirely different
challenge.

All best

Andrew
Post by Thomas Sundberg
Post by George Dinwiddie
Begin with the end in mind. It's hard to get the desired outcome if not
everyone has the same outcome in mind. BDD is a means of agreeing on that
outcome in sufficient detail to create working software. Cucumber allows
you
Post by George Dinwiddie
to turn that agreement into regression tests.
Thanks George!
I came with an alternative after some fiddling.
"Behaviour-Driven Development, BDD, is a way to collaboratively
specify software that says what it does and does what it says.
The specifications are readable and executable.
When they are successfully executed, the software works as wanted."
Having a few options is good so I will keep both.
/Thomas
Post by George Dinwiddie
- George
Post by Thomas Sundberg
Hi!
What is your elevator pitch for BDD and Cucumber?
/Thomas
Elevator pitch: A 10 seconds sales pitch that you can deliver during
an elevator ride that describes an idea in such a way that an
executive can understand it.
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------
* George Dinwiddie * http://blog.gdinwiddie.com
Software Development http://www.idiacomputing.com
Consultant and Coach http://www.agilemaryland.org
----------------------------------------------------------------------
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Thomas Sundberg
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Blog: http://www.thinkcode.se/blog
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Thomas Sundberg
2017-05-09 20:05:15 UTC
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Post by Thomas Sundberg
"Behaviour-Driven Development, BDD, is a way to collaboratively
specify software that says what it does and does what it says.
The specifications are readable and executable.
When they are successfully executed, the software works as wanted
I'd replace 'specify' with 'build', and perhaps 'The specifications' with
'We create specifications that are ...'
Finally although I quite like the last line, it is IMO quite misleading. The
successful execution of specifications guarantee nothing much at all without
review. Its the quality of the review process in tandem with the
specifications that give you a better chance of getting the software you
want. Getting that across in an elevator pitch is an entirely different
challenge.
Yep, getting something important and sometthing sometimes considered
complicated across as an elevator pitch is a challenge.

Thanks for your feeback!
Thomas
Post by Thomas Sundberg
All best
Andrew
Post by Thomas Sundberg
Post by George Dinwiddie
Begin with the end in mind. It's hard to get the desired outcome if not
everyone has the same outcome in mind. BDD is a means of agreeing on that
outcome in sufficient detail to create working software. Cucumber allows you
to turn that agreement into regression tests.
Thanks George!
I came with an alternative after some fiddling.
"Behaviour-Driven Development, BDD, is a way to collaboratively
specify software that says what it does and does what it says.
The specifications are readable and executable.
When they are successfully executed, the software works as wanted."
Having a few options is good so I will keep both.
/Thomas
Post by George Dinwiddie
- George
Post by Thomas Sundberg
Hi!
What is your elevator pitch for BDD and Cucumber?
/Thomas
Elevator pitch: A 10 seconds sales pitch that you can deliver during
an elevator ride that describes an idea in such a way that an
executive can understand it.
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------
* George Dinwiddie * http://blog.gdinwiddie.com
Software Development http://www.idiacomputing.com
Consultant and Coach http://www.agilemaryland.org
----------------------------------------------------------------------
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Thomas Sundberg
M. Sc. in Computer Science
Mobile: +46 70 767 33 15
Blog: http://www.thinkcode.se/blog
Better software through faster feedback
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Thomas Sundberg
M. Sc. in Computer Science

Mobile: +46 70 767 33 15
Blog: http://www.thinkcode.se/blog
Twitter: @thomassundberg

Better software through faster feedback
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80Vikram
2017-05-16 10:07:53 UTC
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From my experiences as QA who is following BDD since last 10 month

"BDD avoid You Burn, I'll Scrape culture within company".

Regards,
Vikram
Post by Thomas Sundberg
Hi!
What is your elevator pitch for BDD and Cucumber?
/Thomas
Elevator pitch: A 10 seconds sales pitch that you can deliver during
an elevator ride that describes an idea in such a way that an
executive can understand it.
--
Thomas Sundberg
M. Sc. in Computer Science
Mobile: +46 70 767 33 15
Blog: http://www.thinkcode.se/blog
Better software through faster feedback
--
Posting rules: http://cukes.info/posting-rules.html
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Roberto Lo Giacco
2017-05-17 08:58:11 UTC
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Post by Thomas Sundberg
Hi!
What is your elevator pitch for BDD and Cucumber?
I didn't have one, but your question made me think about it and I now
strongly believe I need one.
Compared to what others have written I believe I needed something less
technical and more "money oriented" as the managers I generally deal with
are biased versus money and saving...

"It's a better way to create software requirements: rather than using a
business analyst to translate the business needs into requirements we ask
the business representative(s) and the developer(s) to agree on a
terminology and communicate directly with a medium-term time-saving on
requirements and overall software stability improvement. The toughest part
is to deliver THIS message to the parties."
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80Vikram
2017-05-18 08:57:40 UTC
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I would like to suggest small correction in this "....business
representative(s) , *QA* & the developer(s)...."

Good QA can catch bugs at requirement discussion phase itself and avoid You
Burn and I Scrape situation.

Let me know your thoughts.

I'm trying really hard to implement BDD in my current startup but I find it
hard to convince some developers and management as well.

As they ( management ) feel customers can find bugs and we can fix later.
Developer thinks s/he is GOD and can't do any mistakes in each and every
sprint.
In my last 15 years of QA career didn't see any developer who delivers bugs
free s/w each release, that's why even companies like Apple and Google has
dedicated QA teams.

I was with Y! and MS and seen how their quality of deliverable degraded
after getting rid of QA team altogether.

Regards,
Vikram
Post by Roberto Lo Giacco
Post by Thomas Sundberg
Hi!
What is your elevator pitch for BDD and Cucumber?
I didn't have one, but your question made me think about it and I now
strongly believe I need one.
Compared to what others have written I believe I needed something less
technical and more "money oriented" as the managers I generally deal with
are biased versus money and saving...
"It's a better way to create software requirements: rather than using a
business analyst to translate the business needs into requirements we ask
the business representative(s) and the developer(s) to agree on a
terminology and communicate directly with a medium-term time-saving on
requirements and overall software stability improvement. The toughest part
is to deliver THIS message to the parties."
--
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Roberto Lo Giacco
2017-05-19 10:42:33 UTC
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Post by 80Vikram
I would like to suggest small correction in this "....business
representative(s) , *QA* & the developer(s)...."
Good QA can catch bugs at requirement discussion phase itself and avoid
You Burn and I Scrape situation.
Let me know your thoughts.
If there is something I managed to communicate upwards into my chain of
command is there is no distinction between QAs and DEVs. Effectiveness of
such communication is probably due to the obvious consequence they think
they are now saving on testing, which is kinda true considering testing is
now part of development and the overall increase in quality :)
Post by 80Vikram
I'm trying really hard to implement BDD in my current startup but I find
it hard to convince some developers and management as well.
As they ( management ) feel customers can find bugs and we can fix later.
Developer thinks s/he is GOD and can't do any mistakes in each and every
sprint.
In my last 15 years of QA career didn't see any developer who delivers
bugs free s/w each release, that's why even companies like Apple and Google
has dedicated QA teams.
My hook with developers has been "wouldn't be better to know your mistakes
a few minutes after you have done them, when you still have the problem
fresh in your mind?" Whenever any of them says they don't do mistakes I
simply smack him/her in the face as hard as I'm able to.

With management it has been just a matter of costs: I promised I can
increase quality without increasing costs per se. I didn't even try to dig
into "you spend a little bit more now in favor of a better ROI" :D
Post by 80Vikram
I was with Y! and MS and seen how their quality of deliverable degraded
after getting rid of QA team altogether.
Regards,
Vikram
Post by Roberto Lo Giacco
Post by Thomas Sundberg
Hi!
What is your elevator pitch for BDD and Cucumber?
I didn't have one, but your question made me think about it and I now
strongly believe I need one.
Compared to what others have written I believe I needed something less
technical and more "money oriented" as the managers I generally deal with
are biased versus money and saving...
"It's a better way to create software requirements: rather than using a
business analyst to translate the business needs into requirements we ask
the business representative(s) and the developer(s) to agree on a
terminology and communicate directly with a medium-term time-saving on
requirements and overall software stability improvement. The toughest part
is to deliver THIS message to the parties."
--
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Joaquin Menchaca
2017-06-13 21:38:57 UTC
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BDD test the feature results, not implementation, which changes all the
time. Thus high value-add for BDD, less on activities to maintain tests
that don't directly contribute to revenue.

Cucumber is system that uses a language in plain English text that product
managers, QA, and engineers can understand. With this, you can have
discussions to iron out the requirements. This reduces surprises and bugs
in implementation before the tests are even run.
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Roberto Lo Giacco
2017-06-14 10:26:37 UTC
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Il giorno martedì 13 giugno 2017 23:38:58 UTC+2, Joaquin Menchaca ha
Post by Joaquin Menchaca
BDD test the feature results, not implementation, which changes all the
time. Thus high value-add for BDD, less on activities to maintain tests
that don't directly contribute to revenue.
I don't think any in my management chain would understand this sentence...
Post by Joaquin Menchaca
Cucumber is system that uses a language in plain English text that product
managers, QA, and engineers can understand. With this, you can have
discussions to iron out the requirements. This reduces surprises and bugs
in implementation before the tests are even run.
This one instead might actually be effective on some of my management: well
done!
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Aaron H
2017-06-14 12:27:24 UTC
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Personally think it is important to focus on Behavior Driven Development as
a holistic development process that creates a common ubiquitous language
between technical and non-technical users on a project.
Post by Thomas Sundberg
Hi!
What is your elevator pitch for BDD and Cucumber?
/Thomas
Elevator pitch: A 10 seconds sales pitch that you can deliver during
an elevator ride that describes an idea in such a way that an
executive can understand it.
--
Thomas Sundberg
M. Sc. in Computer Science
Mobile: +46 70 767 33 15
Blog: http://www.thinkcode.se/blog
Better software through faster feedback
--
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Roberto Lo Giacco
2017-06-15 10:14:56 UTC
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Post by Aaron H
Personally think it is important to focus on Behavior Driven Development
as a holistic development process that creates a common ubiquitous language
between technical and non-technical users on a project.
Maybe it's the people I have to deal with, but the above uses a language
which is going to scare most of them... "holistic" and "ubiquitous" are two
non obvious terms....
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Aaron H
2017-06-16 12:27:59 UTC
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Another point that might work well as part of this type of a pitch is that
cucumber based tools allow teams to think about test design before any
implementation code is written. Collaboratively authoring the Gherkin
scenarios as a first step helps ensure the scenario is effective, prevent
implementation code duplication, etc.
Post by Roberto Lo Giacco
Post by Aaron H
Personally think it is important to focus on Behavior Driven Development
as a holistic development process that creates a common ubiquitous language
between technical and non-technical users on a project.
Maybe it's the people I have to deal with, but the above uses a language
which is going to scare most of them... "holistic" and "ubiquitous" are two
non obvious terms....
--
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Marit van Dijk
2017-09-07 19:25:09 UTC
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My experience is that writing the scenarios & examples triggers us to think
of different cases and how the system should behave _before_ it is built,
allowing for discussion with Product Owner / Business Analist / QA / Dev
before (or while) features are being built. This causes less rework than
getting the business feedback _after_ (a version of) the feature has been
built. Also, writing the features in "plain" language helps facilitate
discussion and common understanding.

Main selling point to me are:
1. common understanding up front!
2. executable specs - the documentation is part of the code base
If the tests pass, then for sure this is how the system works (yes, the
tests have been reviewed and also I write them as the features are being
built: red-green-refactor)
vs having no documentation or having documentation but not knowing how up
to date it is
3. Test automation
Automated tests allowing (relatively) quick check of different cases (vs
having to manually set up all different cases in various systems/services
with test data)
Also less error-prone than repetitive manual work.
Post by Aaron H
Another point that might work well as part of this type of a pitch is that
cucumber based tools allow teams to think about test design before any
implementation code is written. Collaboratively authoring the Gherkin
scenarios as a first step helps ensure the scenario is effective, prevent
implementation code duplication, etc.
Post by Roberto Lo Giacco
Post by Aaron H
Personally think it is important to focus on Behavior Driven Development
as a holistic development process that creates a common ubiquitous language
between technical and non-technical users on a project.
Maybe it's the people I have to deal with, but the above uses a language
which is going to scare most of them... "holistic" and "ubiquitous" are two
non obvious terms....
--
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Andrew Premdas
2017-09-07 21:48:12 UTC
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I think the phrase 'thinking about how the system behaves before it is
built' is perhaps misleading. Instead I'd suggest that BBD helps you think
about what the system does and why its important.

There is a big difference between the What/Why and the How

What are your thoughts on this?

All best

Andrew
Post by Marit van Dijk
My experience is that writing the scenarios & examples triggers us to
think of different cases and how the system should behave _before_ it is
built, allowing for discussion with Product Owner / Business Analist / QA /
Dev before (or while) features are being built. This causes less rework
than getting the business feedback _after_ (a version of) the feature has
been built. Also, writing the features in "plain" language helps facilitate
discussion and common understanding.
1. common understanding up front!
2. executable specs - the documentation is part of the code base
If the tests pass, then for sure this is how the system works (yes, the
tests have been reviewed and also I write them as the features are being
built: red-green-refactor)
vs having no documentation or having documentation but not knowing how up
to date it is
3. Test automation
Automated tests allowing (relatively) quick check of different cases (vs
having to manually set up all different cases in various systems/services
with test data)
Also less error-prone than repetitive manual work.
Post by Aaron H
Another point that might work well as part of this type of a pitch is
that cucumber based tools allow teams to think about test design before any
implementation code is written. Collaboratively authoring the Gherkin
scenarios as a first step helps ensure the scenario is effective, prevent
implementation code duplication, etc.
Post by Roberto Lo Giacco
Post by Aaron H
Personally think it is important to focus on Behavior Driven
Development as a holistic development process that creates a common
ubiquitous language between technical and non-technical users on a project.
Maybe it's the people I have to deal with, but the above uses a language
which is going to scare most of them... "holistic" and "ubiquitous" are two
non obvious terms....
--
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Roberto Lo Giacco
2017-09-07 23:15:21 UTC
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Post by Andrew Premdas
I think the phrase 'thinking about how the system behaves before it is
built' is perhaps misleading. Instead I'd suggest that BBD helps you think
about what the system does and why its important.
There is a big difference between the What/Why and the How
What are your thoughts on this?
​I'm personally 100% with you Andrew. Especially on the "why it's
important": too often we develop unused or unncessary features.​

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